Thank you.
For anyone else following this thread, this is a summary after a few iterations of sensor analysis testing:
1. Upgrading the camera firmware to 4.36 as per instructions, and using the Native Driver:
2. After upgrading the firmware to 4.36, but before applying the fix for the ASCOM driver cooling issue, the results were the following using the ASCOM driver:
3. After applying the fix so that the cooling function works properly with the ASCOM driver:
Additionally, in an attempt to revert back the original ASCOM driver state, I replaced the cooler fix dll with the original, ran the camera firmware upgrade tool again, and reinstalled the Touptek Ascom Setup. Unfortunately the results are the same and I don't have a way to get back to the original performance with the ASCOM driver (as alluded to earlier in this thread by another user) it seems like something changed that can't be reverted back.
But like Seba said, the Native Driver (after upgrading to 4.36) in desktop tests still performs better than the ZWO/PlayerOne equivalent.
In any case, I will reach out to Touptek with the same results and explanation and see if it's possible to have the best of both worlds (cooling functionality and the lower read noise/higher dynamic range). If they respond and I'm able to squeeze out even more performance I'll update here.
But my forecast is clear tonight, so I'm gonna hopefully have a first light with the new setup using the Native Touptek driver. Wondering if you got any follow up reply from Touptek about having both options working together (cooling functionality and the lower read noise/higher dynamic range). Seba
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Thank you.
For anyone else following this thread, this is a summary after a few iterations of sensor analysis testing:
1. Upgrading the camera firmware to 4.36 as per instructions, and using the Native Driver:
2. After upgrading the firmware to 4.36, but before applying the fix for the ASCOM driver cooling issue, the results were the following using the ASCOM driver:
3. After applying the fix so that the cooling function works properly with the ASCOM driver:
Additionally, in an attempt to revert back the original ASCOM driver state, I replaced the cooler fix dll with the original, ran the camera firmware upgrade tool again, and reinstalled the Touptek Ascom Setup. Unfortunately the results are the same and I don't have a way to get back to the original performance with the ASCOM driver (as alluded to earlier in this thread by another user) it seems like something changed that can't be reverted back.
But like Seba said, the Native Driver (after upgrading to 4.36) in desktop tests still performs better than the ZWO/PlayerOne equivalent.
In any case, I will reach out to Touptek with the same results and explanation and see if it's possible to have the best of both worlds (cooling functionality and the lower read noise/higher dynamic range). If they respond and I'm able to squeeze out even more performance I'll update here.
But my forecast is clear tonight, so I'm gonna hopefully have a first light with the new setup using the Native Touptek driver. * Wondering if you got any follow up reply from Touptek about having both options working together (cooling functionality and the lower read noise/higher dynamic range). Seba
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I noticed that new drivers are available since yesterday 19 th August. Is there and changelog available?
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Erik Derboven:
I noticed that new drivers are available since yesterday 19 th August. Is there and changelog available? * Interesting. I wonder if this is it, the final solution
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@sebaromano unfortunately no, the last message was that they would send instructions later. I'll try and follow up with them later today.
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Ogma has a 4.37 firmware, which doesn't seem to be available on ToupTek's site yet (https://getogma.com/manual/ap26/firmware-ap08cc), but it installed without issues on the ToupTek ATR585C, using the 4.36 ToupTek installer and DLL with the Ogma firmware file.EDIT: Do not flash this. I did a sensor analysis, and it completely breaks HDR (non-sensical results, and artifacts). Went back to 4.36.
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André Bremer:
Ogma has a 4.37 firmware, which doesn't seem to be available on ToupTek's site yet (https://getogma.com/manual/ap26/firmware-ap08cc), but it installed without issues on the ToupTek ATR585C, using the 4.36 ToupTek installer and DLL with the Ogma firmware file. * Anther interesting fact but the question is: what improvements have you found with that firmware from Ogma?
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André Bremer:
Ogma has a 4.37 firmware, which doesn't seem to be available on ToupTek's site yet (https://getogma.com/manual/ap26/firmware-ap08cc), but it installed without issues on the ToupTek ATR585C, using the 4.36 ToupTek installer and DLL with the Ogma firmware file.
*
Another interesting fact but the question is: what improvements have you found with that firmware from Ogma?
Good question! No release notes and I haven't been able to do any testing yet, so your guess is as good as mine. But since the release timing coincides with new releases of the native driver DLL and the ASCOM driver, I assume it's a bigger change.EDIT: No improvements, it breaks HDR completely.
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Received a reply from Touptek with a link to a google docs instructions. It's dated from Aug. 15, 2024 however and doesn't contain any information that we don't already know.
I will respond back and ask specifically about the Aug. 19 update and report back when I hear anything.
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Yes I just recieved this doc from them, but nothing new…☹️
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New sensor analysis after installing the 2024-08-19 'ToupTek Astro Equpment Driver. This .exe will uninstall the previous version and has placed all updated .dll files where they need to go so no need to manually do this. Cooling functions work on both Native and Ascom drivers. I don't see much difference in the results with the Aug. 14th? (previous) version but here are the results nonetheless (camera has been previously upgraded to firmware v4.36): Native Driver, -10c:  ASCOM Driver, -10c:  To summarize, whether you are using the latest driver package or the previous version, there doesn't seem to be any appreciable difference in the sensor performance. However, since there are no release notes or info from Touptek directly, we have no idea what changed in the latest version. So I can't really say whether or not you should upgrade to the latest version if everything is running smoothly. The super low read noise (half of what we see currently) and dynamic range above 15 stops that has been observed with the ASCOM driver that had the cooling problems, seems like it's not coming back, or at least not with this version. But unless you have unique conditions that can fully utilize those specs, it may not even matter in a practical sense.
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New sensor analysis after installing the 2024-08-19 'ToupTek Astro Equpment Driver. This .exe will uninstall the previous version and has placed all updated .dll files where they need to go so no need to manually do this. Cooling functions work on both Native and Ascom drivers.
I don't see much difference in the results with the Aug. 14th? (previous) version but here are the results nonetheless (camera has been previously upgraded to firmware v4.36):
Native Driver, -10c:
ASCOM Driver, -10c:
To summarize, whether you are using the latest driver package or the previous version, there doesn't seem to be any appreciable difference in the sensor performance. However, since there are no release notes or info from Touptek directly, we have no idea what changed in the latest version. So I can't really say whether or not you should upgrade to the latest version if everything is running smoothly.
The super low read noise (half of what we see currently) and dynamic range above 15 stops that has been observed with the ASCOM driver that had the cooling problems, seems like it's not coming back, or at least not with this version. But unless you have unique conditions that can fully utilize those specs, it may not even matter in a practical sense. So where is the high dynamic range with the HDR turned in, this should give close to 16 stops of DR, and it does not show this, this is not good as this was the whole point of the issues and the camera was advertised around this feature…☹️ mine is going back…
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AstroShed:
So where is the high dynamic range with the HDR turned in, this should give close to 16 stops of DR, and it does not show this, this is not good as this was the whole point of the issues and the camera was advertised around this feature…☹️
mine is going back… I want to give Touptek the benefit of the doubt, but I can't find anything officially from them that said the camera would be capable of 16 stops of DR. Both the manual and the camera's web page show HDR mode being 16-bit, and just over 14 stops of DR at gain 100. Which is what is observed currently with firmware v4.36. Now, Toupteks advertised specs for read noise in HDR mode at gain 100 is 0.69 e, and we unfortunately observe 1 - 1.02e. At least for me being in bortle 7/8, I'm certain that the read noise is irrelevant when compared to my sky conditions, but is still something to be aware of. Additionally, Toupteks advertised Full Well for HDR mode at gain 100 is 13,000, while we observe over 29,000. Which again for me, I think is more relevant than the lower read noise. So at the end of the day is it a good camera? In my opinion I'd say it's pretty great and I'm impressed with the results I'm getting and from what I've seen from others. Did Touptek release a camera before all the bugs were solved? Yes. Did they fix them? It seems like it?
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AstroShed:
So where is the high dynamic range with the HDR turned in, this should give close to 16 stops of DR, and it does not show this, this is not good as this was the whole point of the issues and the camera was advertised around this feature…☹️
mine is going back…
I want to give Touptek the benefit of the doubt, but I can't find anything officially from them that said the camera would be capable of 16 stops of DR.
Both the manual and the camera's web page show HDR mode being 16-bit, and just over 14 stops of DR at gain 100. Which is what is observed currently with firmware v4.36.
Now, Toupteks advertised specs for read noise in HDR mode at gain 100 is 0.69 e, and we unfortunately observe 1 - 1.02e.
At least for me being in bortle 7/8, I'm certain that the read noise is irrelevant when compared to my sky conditions, but is still something to be aware of.
Additionally, Toupteks advertised Full Well for HDR mode at gain 100 is 13,000, while we observe over 29,000.
Which again for me, I think is more relevant than the lower read noise.
So at the end of the day is it a good camera? In my opinion I'd say it's pretty great and I'm impressed with the results I'm getting and from what I've seen from others.
Did Touptek release a camera before all the bugs were solved? Yes. Did they fix them? It seems like it?
* Very well said and I am in full agreement with every word you stated. And if I can add a couple of points: - About a month ago I asked the same question to Touptek Tech Support about the camera not reaching 16 bit as advertised. Their answer was: " I have to explain that 16 bit depth do not refers to 16 stops dynamic range. Bit depth and dynamic range are differnt parameters. For example, the sony IMX571(ATR2600) has 16 bit depth, but it only has 14 stops dynamic range or so, not only our ATR2600, but also other IMX571 DSO cameras, because the basic parameters depend on the sensor itself, so please trust us that we won't and we don't need to lie about something that comes with the sensor itself."
- If you look at the specs of a QHY268M or ASI2600M Pro (or just google "sensor analysis for those 2 cameras) you see same / comparable results as the Touptek 585 in terms of F-stops dynamic range (at 14-ish) and FW depth and read noise values.
So all in all, this camera behaves at 16 bit and quite a performant on all other aspects (read noise, FW depth). In certain cases even better than a QHY268m and ASI2600. Check yourself in the web. This little camera is a keeper and I am not chasing Touptek anymore for any improvements nor clarification....but I will keep in eye on this trail for anymore findings ;) -Seba
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Again new drivers today. I wish Touptek would publish a changelog.
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Erik Derboven:
Again new drivers today. I wish Touptek would publish a changelog. Indeed, very confusing...
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hmmm. I will write their tech support to get some insights on the new release but I agree that when new drivers are released they should come with a change log.
I will add a comment in this regard on my email.
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I’m completely lost as to where we are with drivers and firmware for the 585, there has been so any releases 🤯🤯
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I am expecting Touptek reply by tomorrow. I will share their feedback in this forum. In the meanwhile let me share here the last image i took to show what this camera is capable of  https://www.astrobin.com/full/6fj6qc/0/ |
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here it is the reply from Touptek
"The version released last week newly incerased support of G3M664C, fixed some bugs of AAF. You may get updated directly, because the fix has been intergrated into the programm several weeks ago. We will consider your advice. Thank you." |
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here it is the reply from Touptek
"The version released last week newly incerased support of G3M664C, fixed some bugs of AAF. You may get updated directly, because the fix has been intergrated into the programm several weeks ago. We will consider your advice. Thank you." 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
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General question for anyone who's purchased this camera, did you opt for the AR or UV/IR cut glass over the sensor?
I chose the AR glass as it seemed like a waste to to cut off the IR range of the camera given its sensitivity.
But that means I have to use an external UV/IR cut filter, even when I'm using dual narrowband filters (which I assumed would inherently also block UV/IR) otherwise I get strange halos on my stars.
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General question for anyone who's purchased this camera, did you opt for the AR or UV/IR cut glass over the sensor?
I chose the AR glass as it seemed like a waste to to cut off the IR range of the camera given its sensitivity.
But that means I have to use an external UV/IR cut filter, even when I'm using dual narrowband filters (which I assumed would inherently also block UV/IR) otherwise I get strange halos on my stars. I went with AR glass, since it's more flexible. It's odd that you need to stack UV/IR with narrowband, since the narrowband filter should block everything except for the bands you're interested in. Could it be a quality issue with your filter? I don't see this with the ones I use, except for common OIII halos (I use L-Ultimate and Askar D2). The only time you may need a UV/IR cut filter is for broadband, dark targets (where you might want maximum transmission across a wide band).
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André Bremer:
It's odd that you need to stack UV/IR with narrowband, since the narrowband filter should block everything except for the bands you're interested in. Could it be a quality issue with your filter? I agree it's been extremely puzzling. Before I got the ATR585C, I was testing things with an IMX464 sensor (which is similar in size and also has increased IR response). And was getting strange halos when using an Askar C2 filter. As soon as I added a UV/IR cut filter in front of the C2, the halos were gone. I reached out to Askar thinking it may be a defective filter, swapped it through my local telescope store, and the problem persisted. I'm going to do a series of tests tonight with different filter configurations. I'll make a new post though.
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Before buying the camera ATR585C I had the same indecision between AR glass (more flexibility) and IR glass (avoiding to buy a IR/UV filter). One thing made me decide to go with AR glass was the quality (unknown) of the IR/UV filter used by Touptek. So I went with AR glass, bought an Optolong IR/UV filter, I keep it screwed in front of the camera and I get pretty good stars. I didn't regret my decision  |
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