Review of the Touptek IMX585c Cooled camera Generic equipment discussions · AstroShed · ... · 209 · 8615 · 120

TiffsAndAstro 1.81
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
Tobiasz:
TiffsAndAstro:
Tobiasz:
TiffsAndAstro:
here's my test of my 533 couple weeks ago for comparison in case it helps any. 533 has a 14bit adc and sharpcap reports it as 14bit, so im a tad wary if sharpcap says 585 is 16adc. is it possible the revised driver converts 12 bits to 16 bits and could that account for the lack of unity gain showing? i think both sensors output 16bits to nina when imaging, but the 533 doesn't seem to in my sharpcap, so i have to wonder why the 585 says 16bit in that test?

533 at -5 compressedforastrobin.jpg

Yes, the 533 has a 14bit ADC which combined with the other sensor specs results in measured 14Bit Output. Regarding NINA and 16Bit, I think NINA does some bit scaling with images.

As far as I understand Sharpcap does not report the ADC resolution from the sensor directly but calculates it based on the images and measurements it takes. 

I can only repeat. The 585 does ClearHDR imaging, which takes two images at the same time and merges them on the sensor directly. The sensor is doing that, what we are doing with astrophotography: Stacking/Merging images to gain a higher dynamic range.

Edit: Now that I see your screenshot and Gain0/50. You have a SVBONY camera correct? Most brands do not have modes like "Low Conversion Gain" or "High Conversion Gain", the switch is done "on the fly" while raising the gain. You can see it in your sharpcap result between Gain 50 and 100. There is a great fall off of read noise and full well, because the camera switches over to high conversion gain. 

Touptek cameras don't do that, you have to know which mode you want to use first and choose it via dropdown in NINA directly. And regarding the 585 you get a third option, which is "HDR". With this camera I would forget about using LCG/HCG and simply use HDR forever.


yeah i watched cuiv's video some time back. i'd imagine other 'manufacturers' using imx533 will be implement it on their versions if they wanted to. ill go find out how the imx533 is able to turn 12bit into true 16bit on chip as someone said happens, above. perhaps touptek make use of the ddr buffer to store both images and then some processing capacting to merge them or something.

I think you meant the 585 sensor, because the 533 is no ClearHDR sensor. Other vendors like ZWO or QHY can also implement the HDR mode with their 585 sensors, but it will take R&D resources to develop the right HDR algorithm that works. Depending on this whole HDR escalation situation in this thread Touptek needed several weeks the develop their own algorithm. I'm afraid this is an investment not every vendor wants to do.

There are other HDR variants that could be utilised by non-clearHDR-sensors, but there you have the same problem: the cost of development. 

Regards


oops yeah, sorry. IL blame auto correct.

I was torn between 585 and 533 when choosing my astro cam. In the end the almost double sensor size of the 533 was a no brainer.
Though I'm still tempted by a 585 in addition for galaxies with my tiny refractor
Like
TiffsAndAstro 1.81
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
Tobiasz:
TiffsAndAstro:
Tobiasz:
AstroShed:
TiffsAndAstro:
here's my test of my 533 couple weeks ago for comparison in case it helps any. 533 has a 14bit adc and sharpcap reports it as 14bit, so im a tad wary if sharpcap says 585 is 16adc. is it possible the revised driver converts 12 bits to 16 bits and could that account for the lack of unity gain showing? i think both sensors output 16bits to nina when imaging, but the 533 doesn't seem to in my sharpcap, so i have to wonder why the 585 says 16bit in that test?

533 at -5 compressedforastrobin.jpg

I think it’s been explained multiple times why the 585 shows 16 bit in the chart, this is a superb feature of the camera and apart from the smaller sensor is superior to the 533 in many respects, so your chart has no real bearing on this camera as it’s a different beast altogether…
The HDR mode is very interesting and clever how it works and maybe something that could be built into other 12 and 14 bit Touptek cameras in the future…

As far as I know the ClearHDR mode is only available on Starvis 2 Sensors, which is the security camera branch of Sony. The image merge is done on sensor, which means it is a hard-and software feature. Enabling it via firmware only won't be possible, I think the sensor hardware must support it, too. 

I guess the next big milestone would be Sony adapting the ClearHDR feature into the next generation of bigger sensors like 4/3, APSC and FF. But this will depend on the demand of the brands that produce sony-based handheld cameras like Sony themselves or Nikon, ... and so on. If the sensors become widespread available, Touptek can/will get their share. 

But the 585 is still fine though, smaller sensor and FOV does not need a high focal length or big corrected field to work, so you have less constraints regarding the telescope. With a smaller telescope you dont need a bigger mount. It has its advantages

Regards


i don't think imx533 is starvis2, which is a shame. i think its great touptek can improve on a 12bit sensor by doing stuff like this. pretty amazing.

Unfortunately, the IMX533 is not a Starvis 2 sensor and therefore not capable of doing ClearHDR imaging. But the IMX533 has other advantadges like the bigger FOV, so it depends on the customer what he or she prefers. 

Because I like zoomed in FOVs, thats why I use smaller sensors like the 585. My 10 inch RC utilises an IMX432. 1,1" Sony sensor with 9µm pixels. At 2000mm it is a nice photon sucking sensor. 

Regards


9 microns is big. When I was looking at buying my 533 Id often sort cameras low high ascending order.

I didn't know numbers could go so high ;)
Like
Emission 2.11
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
TiffsAndAstro:
Tobiasz:
TiffsAndAstro:
Tobiasz:
AstroShed:
TiffsAndAstro:
here's my test of my 533 couple weeks ago for comparison in case it helps any. 533 has a 14bit adc and sharpcap reports it as 14bit, so im a tad wary if sharpcap says 585 is 16adc. is it possible the revised driver converts 12 bits to 16 bits and could that account for the lack of unity gain showing? i think both sensors output 16bits to nina when imaging, but the 533 doesn't seem to in my sharpcap, so i have to wonder why the 585 says 16bit in that test?

533 at -5 compressedforastrobin.jpg

I think it’s been explained multiple times why the 585 shows 16 bit in the chart, this is a superb feature of the camera and apart from the smaller sensor is superior to the 533 in many respects, so your chart has no real bearing on this camera as it’s a different beast altogether…
The HDR mode is very interesting and clever how it works and maybe something that could be built into other 12 and 14 bit Touptek cameras in the future…

As far as I know the ClearHDR mode is only available on Starvis 2 Sensors, which is the security camera branch of Sony. The image merge is done on sensor, which means it is a hard-and software feature. Enabling it via firmware only won't be possible, I think the sensor hardware must support it, too. 

I guess the next big milestone would be Sony adapting the ClearHDR feature into the next generation of bigger sensors like 4/3, APSC and FF. But this will depend on the demand of the brands that produce sony-based handheld cameras like Sony themselves or Nikon, ... and so on. If the sensors become widespread available, Touptek can/will get their share. 

But the 585 is still fine though, smaller sensor and FOV does not need a high focal length or big corrected field to work, so you have less constraints regarding the telescope. With a smaller telescope you dont need a bigger mount. It has its advantages

Regards


i don't think imx533 is starvis2, which is a shame. i think its great touptek can improve on a 12bit sensor by doing stuff like this. pretty amazing.

Unfortunately, the IMX533 is not a Starvis 2 sensor and therefore not capable of doing ClearHDR imaging. But the IMX533 has other advantadges like the bigger FOV, so it depends on the customer what he or she prefers. 

Because I like zoomed in FOVs, thats why I use smaller sensors like the 585. My 10 inch RC utilises an IMX432. 1,1" Sony sensor with 9µm pixels. At 2000mm it is a nice photon sucking sensor. 

Regards


9 microns is big. When I was looking at buying my 533 Id often sort cameras low high ascending order.

I didn't know numbers could go so high ;)

It's all about the sampling :-)
Like
TiffsAndAstro 1.81
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
Tobiasz:
TiffsAndAstro:
Tobiasz:
TiffsAndAstro:
Tobiasz:
AstroShed:
TiffsAndAstro:
here's my test of my 533 couple weeks ago for comparison in case it helps any. 533 has a 14bit adc and sharpcap reports it as 14bit, so im a tad wary if sharpcap says 585 is 16adc. is it possible the revised driver converts 12 bits to 16 bits and could that account for the lack of unity gain showing? i think both sensors output 16bits to nina when imaging, but the 533 doesn't seem to in my sharpcap, so i have to wonder why the 585 says 16bit in that test?

533 at -5 compressedforastrobin.jpg

I think it’s been explained multiple times why the 585 shows 16 bit in the chart, this is a superb feature of the camera and apart from the smaller sensor is superior to the 533 in many respects, so your chart has no real bearing on this camera as it’s a different beast altogether…
The HDR mode is very interesting and clever how it works and maybe something that could be built into other 12 and 14 bit Touptek cameras in the future…

As far as I know the ClearHDR mode is only available on Starvis 2 Sensors, which is the security camera branch of Sony. The image merge is done on sensor, which means it is a hard-and software feature. Enabling it via firmware only won't be possible, I think the sensor hardware must support it, too. 

I guess the next big milestone would be Sony adapting the ClearHDR feature into the next generation of bigger sensors like 4/3, APSC and FF. But this will depend on the demand of the brands that produce sony-based handheld cameras like Sony themselves or Nikon, ... and so on. If the sensors become widespread available, Touptek can/will get their share. 

But the 585 is still fine though, smaller sensor and FOV does not need a high focal length or big corrected field to work, so you have less constraints regarding the telescope. With a smaller telescope you dont need a bigger mount. It has its advantages

Regards


i don't think imx533 is starvis2, which is a shame. i think its great touptek can improve on a 12bit sensor by doing stuff like this. pretty amazing.

Unfortunately, the IMX533 is not a Starvis 2 sensor and therefore not capable of doing ClearHDR imaging. But the IMX533 has other advantadges like the bigger FOV, so it depends on the customer what he or she prefers. 

Because I like zoomed in FOVs, thats why I use smaller sensors like the 585. My 10 inch RC utilises an IMX432. 1,1" Sony sensor with 9µm pixels. At 2000mm it is a nice photon sucking sensor. 

Regards


9 microns is big. When I was looking at buying my 533 Id often sort cameras low high ascending order.

I didn't know numbers could go so high ;)

It's all about the sampling :-)


cuiv did a recent video of (I think) a full frame with 6 micron pixels on a redcat 51
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
Erik Derboven:
Today I received the new firmware 4.36 together with the Ascom Touptek dll.
After FW upgrade i did a Sharpcap sensor analysis:

At gain 100: 0,52 read noise! 
15.75 STOPS

I'll post a screenshot later!

 Hi Erik,
Touptek is telling me to just download and install the ASCOM in their Download  link in order to unlock the 16 bit HDR functionality. I did and then ran the sensor analysis and I see that it's still at 14 bit.
I wrote Touptek for assistance but i was wondering if you got any specific FW files or different instructions from Touptek then I did.

-Seba
image.png
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
Still no answers from TOuptek but I wnet ahead and downloaded/installed the new FW I found in their site. Now the camera is at 4.36 FW version. But i re-ran sensor analysis and still it doesn't show 16 F-stop as expected. DO I need to do anything with the "toupcam.dll" file?

image.png

image.png
Like
Emission 2.11
...
· 
·  Share link
Still no answers from TOuptek but I wnet ahead and downloaded/installed the new FW I found in their site. Now the camera is at 4.36 FW version. But i re-ran sensor analysis and still it doesn't show 16 F-stop as expected. DO I need to do anything with the "toupcam.dll" file?

image.png

image.png

yes, you need to exchange the dll with the ones in the directory from Nina and Sharpcap. Then both tools will utilize the HDR mode properly.

Regards
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
3rd Update
Still no news from Touptek but I went ahead (again) and took the DLL file that was in the FW zip folder and paste into the Sharpcap main root (pretty much substituting the one that was there already).

When I open Sharpcap it cannot find anymore the camera but ONLY the ASCOM Touptek. Is this what you use it too? The ASCOM driver or you still can use the direct driver (which I don't see it anymore in the list)?

Good news is that now I see the 16 bit unlocked

image.png
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
AH sorry, you provide a reply while I was typing the 3rd update. smile

Still, can you tell me if I need to use the ASCOM driver or the direct driver?
Like
Emission 2.11
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
3rd Update
Still no news from Touptek but I went ahead (again) and took the DLL file that was in the FW zip folder and paste into the Sharpcap main root (pretty much substituting the one that was there already).

When I open Sharpcap it cannot find anymore the camera but ONLY the ASCOM Touptek. Is this what you use it too? The ASCOM driver or you still can use the direct driver (which I don't see it anymore in the list)?

Good news is that now I see the 16 bit unlocked

image.png

Yes you control it via ASCOM Touptek camera.
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
Thank you very much for the quick reply. Then it looks like I am all set and ready to try it out tonight ;)
Exiting stuff.

-Seba
Like
StewartWilliam 5.21
Topic starter
...
· 
·  Share link
Thank you very much for the quick reply. Then it looks like I am all set and ready to try it out tonight ;)
Exiting stuff.

-Seba

You only control it via the ASCOM driver in Sharpcap, in NINA as long as you have swapped the DLL file then you control with native driver that is built into NINA..👍🏻
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
Are you having any issues with cooling the camera when using the ASCOM driver? The camera will not bring the sensor temperature below zero. No matter if I put -10 or -20, it seems that the camera lowers the temperature to a fixed target of zero celcius.
If I instead use the camera with the native driver the cooling works perfectly but then I will not benefit of the HDR 16 bit. Anyone having the same issue?
Like
StewartWilliam 5.21
Topic starter
...
· 
·  Share link
Are you having any issues with cooling the camera when using the ASCOM driver? The camera will not bring the sensor temperature below zero. No matter if I put -10 or -20, it seems that the camera lowers the temperature to a fixed target of zero celcius.
If I instead use the camera with the native driver the cooling works perfectly but then I will not benefit of the HDR 16 bit. Anyone having the same issue?

Have you added the new DLL file in Sharpcap and NINA, for it to see the camera and work…?
with Native driver I mean…
Edited ...
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
yes I did on both applications but I ran the sensor analysis with the ASCOM and not the native driver since I understood that the 16 bit works only with that. Are you saying that it work also with the native driver with the DLL file swapped? In that case I prefer the native driver also because with the ASCOM it seems to be an issue with the cooling.
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
I think I am still not clear if the HDR works at 16 bit in NINA.

To summarize the steps I have taken:

   1) Successfully updated latest ASCOM from Touptek download center as well as the Firmware (now the camera  shows version 4.36 installed)
   2) From the new FW zip file I copied the file called "toupcam.dll" and pasted into NINA and Sharpcap relevant folders (in both case the file was successfully replaced and not just added)
   3) I ran the sensor analysis in Sharpcap by selecting ASCOM driver (note that the native driver was no longer showing in the list of available camera while it was before replacing the DLL file)
   4) result of sensor analysis shows the camera working at 16 bit (HDR mode)
   5) Tried an imagine session with NINA. Selected ASCOM driver but cooling of the camera didn't work. I have tried to cool the camera in Sharcap with ASCOM driver and same issue there.
   6) Tried imagine session with NINA but this time selecting the native driver (in NINA it actually shows the native driver while in Sharpcap it doesn't as per point 3 above). Since I am using the native driver I am not sure if the images I took are at 16 bits or 14 bits. Can anyone tell me how to verify?
   7) Back to Sharpcap, I replaced again the DLL file but this time with the original one.  The native driver now shows again the ATR585C in the list of available camera. Selected and re-ran the sensor analysis under native driver. Camera performed at 14 bit (not anymore at 16 bit), which confirms me that in order for the camera to operate at 16 bit you need to use the ASCOM driver.

To summarize the issues I found:

   a) the 16 bit HDR works only under  ASCOM driver (as per point 4 and 7 above)
   b) by using the ASCOM driver I am unable to cool down the camera sensor (as per point 5 above)
   c) Once replacing the DLL file with the new one downloaded with the new FW, the native driver no longer appears in Sharpcap list of available cameras.


All in all, I cannot use the HDR 16 bit for imaging. I seems that it works only under ASCOM driver but by doing so I cannot cool down the camera.

Is anyone seeing the same issues or it is just my camera or something wrong I am doing?
Thanks
Seba
Like
Emission 2.11
...
· 
·  Share link
Yes, you use the ASCOM driver that touptek delivered with the FW (in Sharpcap & NINA its displayed as "ASCOM Touptek Camera"). I would say with this new .dll and firmware my cooling got even more extreme. At the moment in the warm summer nights when I activate cooling, NINA just bashes the sensor temperature to -10 °C in seconds. It's crazy and that's while its 23-25°C in the night.
Edited ...
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
so under ASCOM is NINA able to cool down the sensor to -10 for example?
Yes mine does a similar thing: it jumps very fast to - 10C but only temporary since it goes back to ambient temp without be able to keep it to the targeted temperature
Like
Emission 2.11
...
· 
·  Share link
I think I am still not clear if the HDR works at 16 bit in NINA.

To summarize the steps I have taken:

   1) Successfully updated latest ASCOM from Touptek download center as well as the Firmware (now the camera  shows version 4.36 installed)
   2) From the new FW zip file I copied the file called "toupcam.dll" and pasted into NINA and Sharpcap relevant folders (in both case the file was successfully replaced and not just added)
   3) I ran the sensor analysis in Sharpcap by selecting ASCOM driver (note that the native driver was no longer showing in the list of available camera while it was before replacing the DLL file)
   4) result of sensor analysis shows the camera working at 16 bit (HDR mode)
   5) Tried an imagine session with NINA. Selected ASCOM driver but cooling of the camera didn't work. I have tried to cool the camera in Sharcap with ASCOM driver and same issue there.
   6) Tried imagine session with NINA but this time selecting the native driver (in NINA it actually shows the native driver while in Sharpcap it doesn't as per point 3 above). Since I am using the native driver I am not sure if the images I took are at 16 bits or 14 bits. Can anyone tell me how to verify?
   7) Back to Sharpcap, I replaced again the DLL file but this time with the original one.  The native driver now shows again the ATR585C in the list of available camera. Selected and re-ran the sensor analysis under native driver. Camera performed at 14 bit (not anymore at 16 bit), which confirms me that in order for the camera to operate at 16 bit you need to use the ASCOM driver.

To summarize the issues I found:

   a) the 16 bit HDR works only under  ASCOM driver (as per point 4 and 7 above)
   b) by using the ASCOM driver I am unable to cool down the camera sensor (as per point 5 above)
   c) Once replacing the DLL file with the new one downloaded with the new FW, the native driver no longer appears in Sharpcap list of available cameras.


All in all, I cannot use the HDR 16 bit for imaging. I seems that it works only under ASCOM driver but by doing so I cannot cool down the camera.

Is anyone seeing the same issues or it is just my camera or something wrong I am doing?
Thanks
Seba

Hm, in point 6 I would say the native driver would not show up, too. At least that's the thing with my NINA. Both tools only control the camera with "ASCOM Touptek camera". And because of this I think the camera is working in 16Bit in both tools. That's what my Sharpcap mesaured, at least. 

Did you install the Touptek ASCOM driver suite in the past? Maybe there is another driver interfering with your .dll's in NINA or Sharpcap. 

As I said in my post above, with the newer .dll my cooling got even more extreme. 

Regards
Like
Emission 2.11
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
so under ASCOM is NINA able to cool down the sensor to -10 for example?
Yes mine does a similar thing: it jumps very fast to - 10C but only temporary since it goes back to ambient temp without be able to keep it to the targeted temperature

Hm, okay. I did not supervise the temps so much, so maybe I have to check my subs, which temperature was measured over the course of the night. Thankfully NINA documents the set and real temperature in the subs. 

Regards
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
yes please if you can check your subs to see if the camera was able to stabile stay at the targeted temperature.
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  Share link
I played a little bit more with the camera cooling issue under ASCOM.
My finding here:
  • it doesn't matter what target temperature I set nor the minimum time frame to reach it, it always pull a crazy power , goes down below zero in a matter of few seconds to end up to 0C
    • For instance in below example I screenshotted my starting temperature was 30C and I tried to bring it down to  20C. As soon as I hit the cooling symbol the temp dropped almost to -10C and then stabilized to 0C

  • Once it goes to that state (cooled at 0C) it cannot be warmed up back to ambient temp by just hitting the button for warming . To stop the cooling I needed to disconnect the camera.

Anyone else experiencing the same?

Screenshot 2024-08-01 162638.jpg
Like
TiffsAndAstro 1.81
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
I played a little bit more with the camera cooling issue under ASCOM.
My finding here:
  • it doesn't matter what target temperature I set nor the minimum time frame to reach it, it always pull a crazy power , goes down below zero in a matter of few seconds to end up to 0C
    • For instance in below example I screenshotted my starting temperature was 30C and I tried to bring it down to  20C. As soon as I hit the cooling symbol the temp dropped almost to -10C and then stabilized to 0C

  • Once it goes to that state (cooled at 0C) it cannot be warmed up back to ambient temp by just hitting the button for warming . To stop the cooling I needed to disconnect the camera.

Anyone else experiencing the same?

Screenshot 2024-08-01 162638.jpg


no but weird coincidence my 533 two nights ago went a bit haywire in the opposite way. Would barely draw power and would only cool to 0c not even ,0.1c.
Had to reboot windows and plug unplug power and usb to camera a couple of times. Seemed to fix it.

It *felt* like It was auto upgrading firmware and I interrupted it. I'm sure it wasn't that, just sort of what it felt like.
Like
sebaromano 1.51
...
· 
·  2 likes
·  Share link
Good to know. It must be something with the software or ASCOM since when I use the native drive the cooling works like a charm.
Quick questions:


Like
StewartWilliam 5.21
Topic starter
...
· 
·  1 like
·  Share link
Yes, make sure you follow the instructions here in the pop up box, on the Touptek download page

IMG_2965.jpeg
Like
 
Register or login to create to post a reply.