Hello guys,
I want to hear your honest opinion on Top Picks and Image of the Day images from remote observatories like in Chile or Hawaii (telescope live).
I am not talking about observatories which are installed by your own with your own equipment, like in Spain or Namibia.
I think its quite unfair to compare images taken with hundrends of thousens €/$ equipment with the best sky on the world to real amateure images.
Dont get me wrong processing is also very important and key for astrophotography, but I always felt like astrobin is more for and from real amateure astronomer, to push the own pics to the limit.
I want to hear your voice on it.
marc
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You're not really going to start this all over again, really.
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This has been rehashed to death and beyond. Let it rest where it belongs: the grave.
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Bob Lockwood:
You're not really going to start this all over again, really. It's a new year, why not a new complaint? haha It's like the budget astrophotography group I'm in on Facebook. Every other week there's someone complaining about the definition of budget and how people shouldn't be allowed because they have nicer gear than the complainer. People aren't happy unless they're griping.
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I have the same opinion, but at the same time I think there is a way to do this fairly
what I would do, if I was Salvatore, is make an awards category just for remote observatory users
or otherwise remove the awarding system completely
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Since the IOTD/TP/TPNs are not really contests, although they may give the appearance of being contests (see the manifesto), method acquisition should be irrelevant.
if we have a separate category for remote, the next thing you know, people will be asking for backyard vs. remote, backyard observatory vs. backyard, narrow band vs. LRGB, collaborations vs individual, solar vs DSO etc.
So it becomes a hugely slippery slope.
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The vast majority is from people using their own telescopes, even if they are remote. The stats are there for everybody to see. Like 35 of the past year have been from amateur hosting facilities. That's not whats preventing most people on here, including myself, from getting awards. It's processing skill. This hobby is a lot more fun when you stop worrying about getting awards.  |
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From the FAQ: “I feel that images acquired with expensive equipment / from pristine skies / from remote hosting facilities get awarded too often. Why isn't the IOTD/TP process split in categories?”
The IOTD/TP is not a competition for the best image, but a system to promote beautiful, interesting, peculiar, or otherwise amazing astrophotographs, with a focus on technical excellence. Large telescopes at pristine remote locations have a tendency to yield better images, to nobody's surprise. The goal is to promote astrophotography, awe people, and reach a wider community (IOTDs are often somewhat viral on social media): for this reason, there are no weight classes.
Moreover, drawing the lines to come up with categories would be very difficult indeed, and it would be a slippery slope leading to even more categories. For instance, what constitutes a “remotely acquired image” as opposed to a “backyard image”? Do we draw the line at "downloaded data"? Or at "remotely acquired with rented time"? What about "remotely acquired with own equipment"? What about "remotely acquired but from the shed on my property 100 yards from the house"? What about "backyard but I live in the desert at 2000 meters of elevation and my equipment is worth $500,000"?
Do we require a different category for people who travel 1 hour to a remote location? What if they drive 5 hours?
Do we require a different category for people who do manual guiding? What about film cameras?
Do we require different categories according to how expensive your equipment is?
Do we require different categories for deep-sky vs solar system objects? What about compositions? What about northern lights?
As you surely understand by now, this is quite complicated, and so far AstroBin has preferred to keep things simple. |
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This is a badly beaten horse that will not die…I do not participate in the IOTD. I did help with the IOTD process in the early AstroBin days, and submitted my images early on. It seemed a good way to support AstroBin and the community. My experience with the process was good, I don't think it can be done much better.
I did notice though that a lot of people become obsessed with the awards and resentful when their images are not selected. I witnessed a number of heated discussions with less than favorable outcomes and decided to withdraw from the process. I have a remote observatory in Southern California under Bortle 1 skies a fact that others found unfair. Even though it took a lifetime of work and love for Amateur Astronomy with considerable personal time and effort to bring the observatory on line. Not to mention the continuing maintenance. There are many who consider their backyard and traveler efforts with purchased instruments more effort, and somehow more deserving.
As mentioned a great image deserves to be brought forward for the community to appreciate, no matter the source…
While my interest is more aligned to the techincal and scientific side of imaging, instrument design and construction,
I find I am more relaxed and appreciative of the work of others when I do not participate in the IOTD process…
If you have issues with the IOTD selection process where in you feel mistreated, don't participate. Relax and Enjoy the great community and hobby…
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The (Zombie? :happy-7  topic that will not die. Are the TP/IOTD awards perfect? No Are any awards anywhere for any endeavor perfect? No Does that mean they are not worthwhile? Also no (IMHO, of course). I think that the awards serve a useful purpose despite the totally unavoidable imperfections. As far as remote sites go, I have both a local backyard site (in a fairly dark site since I am retired) and a remote site. The reason is simply that my backyard is in the Pacific NW and as everyone knows that is cloudy and rainy 60-75% of the year! There are many others that live in cities because they have to and remote is their only practical option for good images. Do we really want to remove what are often the better images from a competition for better images? One could remove remote sites from the competition and then others would want to remove collaborations as well since comparing an image done with 10 scopes to one done with one may also not be fair. Then what about rented scopes, purchased data, professional data? Maybe a limit on how much your system cost? The potential "banned" list is long and one could draw a line or lines but just where would one draw it/them? There are as many opinions on that as there are imagers! I think we have to leave it up to the judges with guidance from Salvatore as to what is appropriate for an award and what is not. IMHO it is too complicated an issue to do it any other way. But that is just my .02 (or maybe even .01)….  |
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Thanks for all the replies!
sorry I was not aware that this topic was already discussed several times to death!
Considering your replies I can understand what you say and it make sense from that perspective. Sorry to bring it up again. Maybe I understood the whole system wrong. I upload on astrobin, but I would not say I am a huge community guy here.
To be honest I am not complaining for myself ( I am happy that it seems like many ppl like my images) But I got so many friends which feel sad about it, thats why I brought up this topic in the first place.
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Yes, we are, because it's absolutely unfair to classify a multi-million euro telescope as a 'hobby telescope' and submit its images to platforms like AstroBin, which are meant for amateur astronomers. Getting 'Image of the Day' with equipment of that caliber has nothing to do with hobby-level astronomy. It's not about starting an argument—it's about standing up for the true spirit of the hobby and fairness in the community.
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If it's not a competition, then why do we have features like 'Image of the Day'? This recognition is clearly meant to highlight outstanding work, and it's something many hobbyists aspire to achieve. But when images captured with multi-million-euro telescopes under the best skies repeatedly take these spots, it’s demoralizing for those of us working with modest setups under less-than-ideal conditions.This isn’t about jealousy or resentment—it’s about fairness. Platforms like AstroBin should focus on celebrating the incredible achievements of amateur astronomers who work within the true limits of the hobby, not professionals or those with unlimited resources.
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Daniel Deifel:
That is Pay to Win. Again, this is not about remote vs backyard. As this comment proves, it's about money. Does more expensive equipment correlate with better images? Statistically yes. Should the IOTD/TP have a section for "the rest of us" with a total equipment cost cap? I don't know but this raises more problems: - what is the cap? $1000? $5000? - how do we enforce this? It's easy to lie about what equipment was used - what goes into the budget? Obviously the equipment itself, like telescopes/cameras/filters/mounts, but what about other factors like spending $200,000 for a house in the mountains and then hosting a $3000 setup there? - what about other factors, like adjusting for purchase power in your country? $5000 is not much in Switzerland, but it's a lot in neighbor country Italy. - what about adjusting for life choices? $5000 is not much for a "double income no kids" couple, but it's a lot in other family situations As you can see, I feel we can establish that the feeling of unfairness is mostly driven by the cost of the setup used, but I think we can also agree that there are other aspects that can lead to things feeling unfair. In my opinion there is just no way to make things 100% equitably fair from that point of view, so it's better to leave everything open in a single category. As you can see, there are a lot of IOTDs and a lot of Top Picks that are acquired with mid-range equipment.
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Salvatore Iovene:
Daniel Deifel:
That is Pay to Win.
Again, this is not about remote vs backyard. As this comment proves, it's about money. Does more expensive equipment correlate with better images? Statistically yes. Should the IOTD/TP have a section for "the rest of us" with a total equipment cost cap? I don't know but this raises more problems:
- what is the cap? $1000? $5000?
- how do we enforce this? It's easy to lie about what equipment was used
- what goes into the budget? Obviously the equipment itself, like telescopes/cameras/filters/mounts, but what about other factors like spending $200,000 for a house in the mountains and then hosting a $3000 setup there?
- what about other factors, like adjusting for purchase power in your country? $5000 is not much in Switzerland, but it's a lot in neighbor country Italy.
- what about adjusting for life choices? $5000 is not much for a "double income no kids" couple, but it's a lot in other family situations
As you can see, I feel we can establish that the feeling of unfairness is mostly driven by the cost of the setup used, but I think we can also agree that there are other aspects that can lead to things feeling unfair.
In my opinion there is just no way to make things 100% equitably fair from that point of view, so it's better to leave everything open in a single category.
As you can see, there are a lot of IOTDs and a lot of Top Picks that are acquired with mid-range equipment. Thank you for your detailed response, but I believe the core issue here isn’t about trying to make things 100% equitable or creating rigid cost caps—it’s about preserving the spirit of what platforms like AstroBin represent for hobbyists. Yes, fairness is complex, and yes, equipment cost does correlate with image quality, but when the same high-end setups dominate IOTD repeatedly, it creates a clear imbalance.Your points about the challenges of defining caps or accounting for factors like location or life choices are valid. However, that doesn’t change the fact that many amateur astronomers, who are working with limited resources and under far-from-ideal skies, feel increasingly left out of the spotlight. A platform meant for hobbyists should prioritize recognizing creativity, effort, and resourcefulness over raw spending power.While it’s true that some mid-range setups do make it to IOTD, the reality is that those are exceptions. The overall trend shows a clear bias towards ultra-high-end equipment, which is far from accessible for most hobbyists. Leaving everything open in a single category might feel 'fair' on paper, but in practice, it alienates a significant part of the community.
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My observatory is extremely remote, about 100 feet out my back door. I feel I have the same chance as everyone else. Often I can rival some of these big scopes you talk about with processing ability.
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Salvatore Iovene:
In my opinion there is just no way to make things 100% equitably fair from that point of view, so it's better to leave everything open in a single category.
As you can see, there are a lot of IOTDs and a lot of Top Picks that are acquired with mid-range equipment. I totally agree! I am in a somewhat intermediate position with most imaging rigs being cheaper than mine and located in less ideal places and yet there are still a lot of setups that cost far more than mine and sit on top of a mountain in Chile. For that reason I can see the argument from both sides. I would also point out something that has not been mentioned and that is that the amount one has spent on equipment is not only about how much money one has to spend. There are two other factors besides raw wealth: 1) How willing is an imager to spend their hard-earned money on equipment? This can be a measure of enthusiasm for the hobby - something that arguably should be encouraged, not discouraged. 2) How long has it taken to accumulate the equipment? Someone that has taken 30 years to accumulate equipment (I fall into that category) can not really be compared to someone who has taken two years to spend the same amount. The short version is that making any contest (or any judgement, for that matter) that is seen as fair by everyone is impossible. With all it's flaws, the IOTD/TP process is a reasonable approach and although Astrobin would be less contentious without it, it would also be way less interesting.
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Brian Puhl:
Often I can rival some of these big scopes you talk about with processing ability. Very True! Processing is at least half the game and the cheaper half by far. Processing is more about skill and learning and that is something that should always be rewarded. Having said that, even processing can have some potential inequities. 1) Some occupations may already have an advantage if dealing with images and processing software is part of their day job. 2) Collaborations may have an advantage since the one that does the processing is typically the most skilled in the group. 3) Imagers that have been doing it for a long time will generally be better. But once again, I think the IOTD/TP system does pretty well overall and I would not want to see it either go away or become too rule-bound. The judges need some freedom to make judgments.
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I know I've said this for years, but I think 2025 is the year I finally do additional contests (actual contests, no "it's not a contest" contests) :-)
I'm thinking about a new section for custom community contests (i.e. some will be operated by AstroBin and be official, some by sponsors who will offer prizes, some by community members for fun).
The idea is that there could be any number of contests, each with its own rule. So, if you want, you can create a contest for "Images of M31 acquired from Bortle 9 with a sub-$1000 setup", or whatever you want, really, as it's your contest, your rules.
I need to figure out how not to make it too big of an aspect on AstroBin tho. I know that some people already think that AstroBin is too "contest-centric", tho that's not my wish for it to be, as I see it more of a way to record data about astrophotography, keep your gallery, and social network with others.
I'll need a few more months to work on the app version of AstroBin, then that's the next big thing on my agenda!
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Salvatore Iovene:
I know I've said this for years, but I think 2025 is the year I finally do additional contests (actual contests, no "it's not a contest" contests) :-) Looking forward to it. CS, John
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Daniel Deifel:
Yes, we are, because it's absolutely unfair to classify a multi-million euro telescope as a 'hobby telescope' Can you clarify just who is using this multi-million euro telescope.??? From what see, everyone using scopes in Chile-Spain or Namibia, are using their own equipment.
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Bob Lockwood:
Can you clarify just who is using this multi-million euro telescope.??? Of course I can't be sure which scope they were talking about, there are a handful of that sort of instrument with images on Astrobin. One that comes to mind offhand is this one (although I have no clue as to it's cost, it is clearly a professional scope, albeit not huge as professional scopes go): Big ScopeTo be clear, I personally have no problem with images from such scopes as long as full disclosure is made that that the scope used was not an independently owned amateur scope and the judges handle that in whatever manner they and Salvatore think appropriate.
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The most sane counter argument for all of this I can think of… Is the fact that you can just as easily go purchase the same data you are complaining about and have the same chance as competing as those who you claim have an unfair advantage. There is no gatekeeping here. Also, it's easily overlooked that technically you're not supposed to submit multiple versions of the same data sets to IOTD, yet TS live's M83 has probably been through the IOTD queue more times than we have images in our galleries.
These companies thrive because of less fortunate folks who live in light polluted areas. To take that away simply defeats the whole purpose of giving everyone a fair chance at IOTD. And if I'm being honest here, TS live isn't even all that great.
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Brian Puhl:
Is the fact that you can just as easily go purchase the same data you are complaining about and have the same chance as competing as those who you claim have an unfair advantage True, or just download Hubble or Webb data, for that matter. Cheaper and effectively the same thing, data you did not gather from equipment you do not own and did not set up or run. Personally, one of my "pet peeves" is purchased (or downloaded for free) data. I suspect that is because I have spent decades buying and setting up and running my own systems so consider purchased data to be too much of a shortcut. Despite now having a scope at a remote site in addition to my backyard, I still travel to set it up myself and run it myself and would consider less than that to be that much less "really my image" by that proportion. One flaw in the original post was equating remote with expensive equipment and that is demonstrably untrue. Remote is more about dark and clear than it is about equipment cost. Places like the new Starfont site in Texas are overwhelmingly filled with mostly small and not especially expensive systems both in terms of equipment cost and site rental costs For the same reason the "urban argument" for downloading data carries less weight than it did only a few years ago, small systems are cheaper and remote sites for them are as well.
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