| Top Picks and Image of the day from remote observatories okay? | |
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| Yes | |
| No | |
| Depends | |
| Login to vote and view results. |
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My "back-of-the-envelope" calculations say that a moderately-sized system would at least cost around 8-10 grands (£/euro) to which one needs to add the running cost which I estimate not to be lower than 300 euro/month (better sites would cost more than that). No frigging way this is, in my estimate, a cheap/cheaper way to do AP, never mind the rest of the cost of living with kids at Uni and all that. And would spoil the fun of it. IOTD can go and take a hike, as far as I am concerned.
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I feel sorry to make this topic up again😂 seems like a very sensitive topic for both sides. But it cool to see at least reactions from the founder, thats not usual for any other host side😊
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I personally think the ban on Hubble space telescope photos for awards is a bit outdated. Is a 1 meter scope that much different from a space telescope? In a sense, Hubble data is the great equalizer since it is free and equally accessible to all.
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There is no such ban tho.
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Salvatore Iovene: oh ok. There was a time where there was. I might be mistaken about that. |
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@Salvatore Iovene is it possible to close forum posts?
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andrea tasselli: But if you already have sunk cost in a system, and wish to improve the quality of your images and the number of images you generate, it isn’t a bad idea to send it to a place like Starfront. You could choose to do it for a limited period of time, say a year or two, and that would give you a lot better chance, assuming reasonable processing skills, to increase the probability an award, if that is your goal. Or even simply generate better images. The reality of the situation is that this is a hobby that benefits from dark and clear skies. That just needs to be acknowledged and accepted. It is neither fair nor unfair. It just is. If this was not the case, and location had no impact on image quality, there would be no reason for some very smart people to spend tons of money. I’m past the point of trying to “compete” with that since it is essentially a race to bankruptcy, but other people with more time and more resources can make different choices. As an aside, I think Starfront costs are $300/ month. Is it really that much different than buying a premium mount to use a facility like that for a year or two? The good thing about Starfront is that it makes dark skies more accessible. That’s a positive. |
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Marc-Antonio Fischer: Yes but this is an open discussion and so long as everyone is civil, I prefer not to stifle conversation! Don’t worry about have awaken the sleeping dog  |
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Bob Lockwood:Daniel Deifel: The point isn’t about everyone in Chile, Spain, or Namibia—it’s about the few using extremely expensive, professional-grade telescopes. These setups, often worth millions, are in a completely different league than typical hobby equipment, making comparisons unfair. |
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Arun H: Not sure that it would apply to anyone outside continental US/Canada so basically it is a no go for the rest of us. A rig intended for remote use with close to zero intervention from the user requires robustness and reliability which would rule out a lot of small rigs or at least rigs not intended for heavy duty, hands-off automation. Personally I don't see whether sinking a fair wad of cash for the dim prospect of having a non-zero chances for a (daily distributed) "award" is really worth it. But to each their own... |
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andrea tasselli: I think (hope?) that it is a matter of time before someone does the same in Europe. And, given the volume of rigs at Starfront, people seem to be having success with non premium mounts and relatively cheap equipment there. As an aside - there is cost involved everywhere. People like Vikas Chander take beautiful images from remote corners of the world. I don't know what his travel costs are, but I imagine not insignificant. But no one claims that his awards are not deserved or that these should be in a different category like "Imagers with a large travel budget" |
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Salvatore Iovene: I love this idea. When this does go live we can do a contest to give away data as prizes. Maybe even give away a one year subscription as a grand prize. 🙂 |
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Dark Matters Astrophotography: Sponsored contests are definitely part of the idea. I expect sponsored contests from you and other remote hosting facilities, as well as equipment vendors. I only have to figure out a way to not have too many contests. On one hand, I would love to have true community contests where the community self-organizes, but I don't see the point in having 200 contests running concurrently. I'll be sure to check in with you in the planning phase to get your opinion and feel free to put this in the backburner if you want to give it some thought! |
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Salvatore Iovene: Fear not, my dog is very friendly (see my avatar) . |
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Salvatore Iovene: interesting idea. I agree that one would need to limit the number and (maybe) scope of contests. I would hate to see AB become become dominated by aggressive competitions that are done solely for the financial interests of those that start them and enter them. It sounds like something that would need some significant beta testing to develop in terms of both design and demand. Speaking (only) for myself, I doubt that I would be interested in entering a contest that had financial rewards. That strays too far from the reasons I do astroimaging. |
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Bill McLaughlin: This is my main point of concern. I know that there are people who think already that AstroBin is a competitive place just because of the IOTD/TP. Tho I suspect that for most people the IOTD/TP is a pro rather than a con, or AstroBin would be less successful. Whatever I end up planning, with the help of the community, would most definitely be well isolated from gallery pages and image pages. We have enough badges in my opinion! |
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Salvatore Iovene:Bill McLaughlin: I agree, I think monetizing it will only exacerbate it. That said, seems worth a try though... |
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Salvatore Iovene: I do not think that (edit: currently) AstroBin is too "contest-centric" however I am one of those who elects to not participate in IOTD. My not caring about IOTD really made me want to not participate in the discussion here! But I think people who are contemplating what the IOTD is or ought to be should hear from more than one or two non-participants about their reasons. In any case, this being the only recent Forum post on IOTD that has not gotten ugly, I offer the following: I do believe that IOTD creates conditions that are not beneficial to many people, even for those who feel that it really is helpful. I have stated my reasons several times in less widely seen forums here, but as a personal reason I felt that the competitive pressures, however slight (or percieved by me as slight), consistently seemed to push my artistic bent one way or the other. Some were rather overt comments, and some were simply because of a particular image getting recognition within the IOTD process along with the comments that resulted in that. I did not know at the time that I was even enrolled in the IOTD process, nor did I care. But then a couple of recognitions happened and I realized that I suddenly felt that I should care! And I quickly sensed this pressure. Upon reading in a comment to another AB participant about how they "turned off" participation in IOTD, (A response to a query by a commenter of one of his images about why this person had so many images, yet no awards (Instantly one can see how peer pressure builds in such group situations!), I found the switch and turned it off in my profile! As a scientist, one who is used to reviewing data, etc. and as an amateur astronomer and wanna be cosmologist for many years, I came into astrophotography with a pretty clear idea of what I wanted out of the hobby. So I did not need anyone or any comittee telling me how my images should look. Even still, I do get specific suggestions, I solicit help within my group of followers and mostly appreciate and do not get bothered by such input. That said, I have certainly learned heaps of stuff here on AstroBin from users on how to acquire data, what gear is suitable, the ins and outs of processing, and for what ends. And I recognize that I have many shortcomings in understanding AP to the fullest extent. What I know is that IOTD is not a tool that I need to use to achieve any of that. I can evaluate the images posted here, decide which ones I like best and see how they achieve their results regardless of any official accolades. My greatest concerns about IOTD is the numerous heated discussions about its inherent fairness or lack thereof. It may be true that this is from just a very small fraction of AB participants, but I am not sure that is true. I know of some who feel slighted by IOTD, who have not openly complained, but still feel ignored. To me, I am reminded of a flock of seagulls fighting over a dropped hot dog on a beach. Its actually embarrassing to even see these discussions sometimes. It also makes me feel that the complainers are actually in this hobby precisely for its competitive outcomes and only for the awards. And most distressing is when I see such complaints coming from a new astrophotographer, who has only just started the hobby. This is why I feel that IOTD may be causing more harm than good to those who might want to do this sort of thing. It kind of kills the whole idea of any personal discovery in this sport. I have always assumed that the IOTD was first and foremost a way for AstroBin to display the wares of its participants in a proud manner, to attract those to the AB communit, who are like minded, or just love beautiful and interesting images of the Cosmos and stop by time-to-time to look and see. So I have a suggestion. If AB really is considering real contests, then I would look for ways to reduce the contest nature of the IOTD. Since first hearing of the contest idea here, I have not had the time to form an opinion on that. But it worries me... For IOTD: 1. I would remove the automatic enrollment of new people who join AB. Everyone should be aware of needing to elect to participate. 2. Anyone selected for an IOTD should not be eligible for another IOTD for some period of time. (Clearly we have enough members to support such a thing and still keep great images on the front page.) 3. At a minimum, an image, if selected as an IOTD, should not be labeled on its Technical Card, or within a user's gallery unless that user wants it to be so identified. 4. I had also thought that some fantastic images from those who do not participate in IOTD might still be selected for an "image of interest" by the comittee. In such cases, I could see that the comittee might approach the maker of the image to ask them if it might not be used in the AB front page. And the user might grant such use, but in an anonymous way. (This may be a sketchy idea. Not sure how to implement.) 5. As suggestions, this short list is certainly not comprehensive. But if IOTD is really about showing AB wares, then maybe the comittee can be freed up regarding images' technical superiority, or any specific criteria and simply "show AstroBin's wares". I.e. AstroBin for the users: "...a way to record data about astrophotography, keep your gallery, and social network with others..." |
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Salvatore Iovene: This could be controlled by a submission phase: Each person/group/company who wants to run a contest would first introduce it (on sth like a 'contest board') describing rules/policies etc. The AB community decides with voting in a given time window and the most attractive contests will be approved. Besides controlling the number of contests, that will also ensure their quality level. CS, John |
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Dark Matters Astrophotography:Salvatore Iovene: This is honestly outrageous to those who, for example, live in places like Germany and have to deal with bad weather or difficult conditions. Giving away data or subscriptions as prizes mostly benefits those who already have better opportunities, leaving others completely behind. How on earth is someone who does this as a hobby supposed to compete against such high-end setups or under these conditions? And yet again, a ridiculously expensive telescope under the best skies has won. It’s frustrating and completely against the spirit of the hobby. |
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Daniel Deifel: You will be able to propose a contest specific for "People who live in places with less than X number of clear nights per year". I know how you feel when the weather isn't cooperating: when I started AstroBin I used to live in Finland, and OMG was the weather uncooperative! But this has nothing to do with showing people excellent images from around the world. Daniel Deifel: Nobody is supposed to compete. Astrophotography is NOT a competition! AstroBin is not a competition. There are so many reasons to use AstroBin that have nothing to do with the IOTD, and there are so many reasons to do astrophotography that have nothing to do with AstroBin or any other place to post your photographs. Daniel Deifel: No, a good image won the IOTD today. And it's easier to make a good image if the sky is good and the equipment is expensive. Posting this again for your reference:  And please take a look at the IOTD Manifesto, which explains how and why the IOTD/TP system is agnostic of things like cost of equipment, quality of sky, and other factors. |
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Btw here's a list of 1188 IOTDs from backyard setups: [link] That is more than the 788 IOTDs from "Own remote telescope" and the more than the 204 IOTDs from "Amateur hosting facility", combined. So unless you want ALL the IOTDs to be from backyard setup, I'd say things are pretty good. Let's share the love for the night sky without negativity, let's cherish eachother's accomplishments, and enjoy our time on this floating rock! |
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Salvatore Iovene:Daniel Deifel: That’s fine, and it’s good to see amateur remote setups recognized. The idea of having a separate contest or recognition specifically for people who don’t have access to the best conditions is actually a great one. It would give those of us working under challenging skies a fair chance to showcase our skills and creativity without feeling overshadowed by those with access to perfect skies and advanced setups |
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Salvatore Iovene: In reality, that's a bit misleading, I think. 62% of images were submitted from backyard which only accounted for 32% of IOTDS. Own remote accounted for 13% of submissions resulting in 36% of IOTDs. Even if you start not with total submissions, but TPNs (use a first filter) - backyard was 47% of TPNs, but only 32% of IOTDs, own remote was 20% versus 36% of IOTDs. In each case, own remote wins more than its "fair share" of IOTDs. This totally makes sense - people set up remote observatories to get more opportunity to take images and take advantage of better skies. This is not bad, it is just reality of the hobby. As I said, we just need to acknowledge and accept it. If it weren't so, and there was no advantage to going remote, remote observatories would not exist. These days, when I see an IOTD from a remote setup, it does not affect me one way or another. I simply view it as a different class of image that I have zero interest in. AS long as there are enough images taken from a backyard to traveler that I can reasonably emulate, the IOTD/TP/TPN process is serving its purpose. |
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Just an idea, how accurate is the value of the "own observatory" or "amature hosting facility"? I mean I can also buy some images from telescope live, then puplic them here and claim that they are from my backyard with my own telescope? Nobody can verify that. Its not the point to prove anything, but that just came in my mind |
