Strange TOA-130 behavior, drifting focal point under same conditions. Takahashi TOA-130 · Ashraf AbuSara · ... · 37 · 685 · 6

darkmattersastro 11.95
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Ashraf AbuSara:
Scotty Maxwell:
@Ashraf AbuSara
Just saw this.  Same thing has happened to me on my TOA130, as well as my FSQ106.  Just like Mr. Martin has said it required a recalibration.  Sounds like everything went fine for you but folks that are reading this should know that the rotater will recalibrate too.  So if you havent taken your flats recently do that first.  Also, if you think you may have a limited range on your rotator due to cable length, I can't remember the limit on how far it will go but I have had mine pull the cables pretty tight.  I have my rotation set to only rotate 180 degrees (90deg CW and -90 deg CCW from 0).  If you really need it to honor those limits for collision prevention I'm not sure it considers the set limits when recalibrating.  Maybe someone else here will know.

That said despite the need to recalibrate it's a small price to pay for such a fantastic piece of equipment... I have 3! (2 WR35s and a LR25)

-Scotty

Yup the rotator doesn't care what limits you put when you calibrate. There is an option to calibrate just the focuser draw tube and leave the rotator alone. I had to reset my rotator position to how it was after the calibration. 

I agre@Timothy Martin I only take flats once every few months. Everything between the rotator and the objective is too far out of focus to affect the flats as long as the illumination is even. The corrector and the filters / sensor all are after the rotator and will rotate simultaneously and will produce an identical flat no matter what angle you have rotated to.



i take flats every night on each scope. No matter how well I try and keep the imaging train fully mote free, a few get in. When they shift and move it can be a nightmare to properly correct an entire project worth of data. 

As for the NC and drift, I have been running one on my cdk14 remotely for quite a long time and haven’t seen this issue occur yet. Just deployed an SVX180t-2 with one on it and no drift at all yet.
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Shannon_Foye 8.73
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@Ashraf AbuSara
@Timothy Martin
@Scotty Maxwell
@Daniel Cimbora

Fellow NiteCrawlers,

For remote imagers, here is a fast method of checking for and/or clearing  any drawtube position errors  (i.,e., finding the true, fully retracted zero position)  that does not  involve engaging the rotator.

The Moonlite "HOME" function calibrates both the drawtube and rotator using magnetic limit switches. For a remote setup, you may not want to risk a blind rotator calibration if you do not have enough extra slack in your imaging train cables that safely allows for a 360 degree rotation.

To check for and/or remove an error in your drawtube position:
  1. Connect the MoonLite remote application
  2. Click in the numerical text box under "FOCUSER," to the left of "GOTO"
  3. Add an arbitrary large number of steps to your current drawtube position and then enter that number in the box under "FOCUSER"
  4. Click on the "SET POS" to the left of "FOCUSER." The drawtube position in the software is now falsely set to a larger value than its actual position.
  5. Enter "0" in the same box under "FOCUSER"
  6. Click on "GOTO." The drawtube will now attempt to retract to the false zero position but it will be stopped prematurely when it hits the magnetic limit switch at the actual zero position. NOTE: If the indicated drawtube position goes all the way to zero, then you have not yet hit the magnetic limit switch at the fully retracted zero position and you'll need to start over.
  7. Enter "0" in the box under "FOCUSER"
  8. Click on "SET POS." The drawtube is now set to the true zero position because it was stopped by the magnetic limit switch at the fully retracted position.


I ran these steps to clear out accumulated drawtube error and took the following screenshots. My drawtube position was 23,134. I typed in "30,000" in the box under "FOCUSER" and clicked "SET POS." By doing this, I added 6,866 steps to my indicated drawtube position. I then sent the drawtube to the zero position by entering "0" in the box under "FOCUSER" and clicking on "GOTO."

The drawtube fully retracted when it hit the magnetic limit switch. The indicated drawtube position at  the true zero position was 2,511. My drawtube position error was 4,355 steps, which is 1.1614mm or 0.0457" (.0000105” per step or .2667 Microns per step).
Screenshot 2025-03-03 at 3.00.36 AM.png
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aabosarah 9.31
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Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Ashraf AbuSara:
Scotty Maxwell:
@Ashraf AbuSara
Just saw this.  Same thing has happened to me on my TOA130, as well as my FSQ106.  Just like Mr. Martin has said it required a recalibration.  Sounds like everything went fine for you but folks that are reading this should know that the rotater will recalibrate too.  So if you havent taken your flats recently do that first.  Also, if you think you may have a limited range on your rotator due to cable length, I can't remember the limit on how far it will go but I have had mine pull the cables pretty tight.  I have my rotation set to only rotate 180 degrees (90deg CW and -90 deg CCW from 0).  If you really need it to honor those limits for collision prevention I'm not sure it considers the set limits when recalibrating.  Maybe someone else here will know.

That said despite the need to recalibrate it's a small price to pay for such a fantastic piece of equipment... I have 3! (2 WR35s and a LR25)

-Scotty

Yup the rotator doesn't care what limits you put when you calibrate. There is an option to calibrate just the focuser draw tube and leave the rotator alone. I had to reset my rotator position to how it was after the calibration. 

I agre@Timothy Martin I only take flats once every few months. Everything between the rotator and the objective is too far out of focus to affect the flats as long as the illumination is even. The corrector and the filters / sensor all are after the rotator and will rotate simultaneously and will produce an identical flat no matter what angle you have rotated to.



i take flats every night on each scope. No matter how well I try and keep the imaging train fully mote free, a few get in. When they shift and move it can be a nightmare to properly correct an entire project worth of data. 

As for the NC and drift, I have been running one on my cdk14 remotely for quite a long time and haven’t seen this issue occur yet. Just deployed an SVX180t-2 with one on it and no drift at all yet.

That should be best practice. If I start having problems I will probably shift to this but I typically start stacking projects every few days and if I notice a problem I would take a new set of flats. Biggest issue with nightly flats is the extra data requirements as I cannot stack on site yet and I have to upload and download everything for now.
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aabosarah 9.31
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Shannon Foye:
@Ashraf AbuSara
@Timothy Martin
@Scotty Maxwell
@Daniel Cimbora

Fellow NiteCrawlers,

For remote imagers, here is a fast method of checking for and/or clearing  any drawtube position errors  (i.,e., finding the true, fully retracted zero position)  that does not  involve engaging the rotator.

The Moonlite "HOME" function calibrates both the drawtube and rotator using magnetic limit switches. For a remote setup, you may not want to risk a blind rotator calibration if you do not have enough extra slack in your imaging train cables that safely allows for a 360 degree rotation.

To check for and/or remove an error in your drawtube position:
  1. Connect the MoonLite remote application
  2. Click in the numerical text box under "FOCUSER," to the left of "GOTO"
  3. Add an arbitrary large number of steps to your current drawtube position and then enter that number in the box under "FOCUSER"
  4. Click on the "SET POS" to the left of "FOCUSER." The drawtube position in the software is now falsely set to a larger value than its actual position.
  5. Enter "0" in the same box under "FOCUSER"
  6. Click on "GOTO." The drawtube will now attempt to retract to the false zero position but it will be stopped prematurely when it hits the magnetic limit switch at the actual zero position. NOTE: If the indicated drawtube position goes all the way to zero, then you have not yet hit the magnetic limit switch at the fully retracted zero position and you'll need to start over.
  7. Enter "0" in the box under "FOCUSER"
  8. Click on "SET POS." The drawtube is now set to the true zero position because it was stopped by the magnetic limit switch at the fully retracted position.


I ran these steps to clear out accumulated drawtube error and took the following screenshots. My drawtube position was 23,134. I typed in "30,000" in the box under "FOCUSER" and clicked "SET POS." By doing this, I added 6,866 steps to my indicated drawtube position. I then sent the drawtube to the zero position by entering "0" in the box under "FOCUSER" and clicking on "GOTO."

The drawtube fully retracted when it hit the magnetic limit switch. The indicated drawtube position at  the true zero position was 2,511. My drawtube position error was 4,355 steps, which is 1.1614mm or 0.0457" (.0000105” per step or .2667 Microns per step).
Screenshot 2025-03-03 at 3.00.36 AM.png

@Shannon Foye

For me when I click the Home button, it gives me the option to only HOME the focuser drawtube, and leave the rotator alone. Should spare you having to go through that manual process.

Screenshot 2025-03-03 062915.png
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aabosarah 9.31
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Scotty Maxwell:
I always suspected that but I got a set of flats once that when I used them they were slightly off and I could see a little crescent sliver where every dust mote was. Since then I have been overly careful.  I'm sure it was probably the connection between my camera and EFW now that i think about it.

Never wrong to take the flats nightly. In fact that is best practice Scotty. It just is too much data for me at the moment that, like Timothy, I am luckily getting away with without having to do. Eventually I may get burned by that.
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AccidentalAstronomers 18.64
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Ashraf AbuSara:
Never wrong to take the flats nightly. In fact that is best practice Scotty. It just is too much data for me at the moment that, like Timothy, I am luckily getting away with without having to do. Eventually I may get burned by that.


If I had to take flats every night on all five of my scopes, I simply wouldn't do astrophotography at all. That would be about 1,500+ sets of flats per year, which would be impossible for me to store and manage--let alone deal with on a daily basis in image processing. No one's paying me to do this--and you couldn't pay me enough to take flats every night or, as some do, for every single rotation (it's not unusual for me to employ three different rotation angles in a single night on a particular rig).

I do a quick stack check on images every few days--just stacking data for the previous night, which only takes a few minutes. If I notice a problem, I'll take new flats. (There are other reasons to do this, too--checking framing, ensuring that the camera is functioning properly, discovering issues that may be unique to the field, and so forth.) Last time I took flats for the three scopes at Deep Sky West was in the October-November timeframe. I last took flats for the two scopes here at home in December. I do have dust motes in all my scopes, but they correct out just fine and don't seem to move very often, if at all. 

Further, I use the Alto-Giotto combination on all but one of my scopes, which means I have only one set of flat darks for every filter since all my flats have the same exposure time, gain, and temperature settings--which leads me to a few more things that some might not regard as best practices.

For example, I employ only three distinct exposure times for all my subs on all my scopes. 60s for RGB stars on narrowband images, 180s for broadband, and 300s for narrowband--all shot at unity gain and, where applicable, the default offset--regardless of focal ratio. I'm in the midst of a long-term test of taking longer narrowband subs. I have 135 hours of 300s Ha subs for Markarian's Chain taken with the TOA130 from last year--extremely faint stuff. I have 70 hours of 1200s Ha subs on it this year so far (aiming for around 150 hours). I did a test stack of 50 hours of each and saw no appreciable difference. We'll see how 150 hours of 1200s subs compare to 135 hours of 300s subs when I finish in the June time frame, but I suspect there won't be much to justify the risks that 1200s subs introduce (wind gusts, tracking errors, someone turning a light on in the observatory briefly, low flyovers, and the like). There are very rare exceptions to this, where I might shoot really short subs, like to get HDR data for M42 or on a very bright PN. 

I also use the same cooling temps year round. -10C for two of the three rigs at Deep Sky West, -15C for the other, and 0C on the two scopes here at home where it rarely gets below 0C in the winter and often gets up to 40C in the summer.

I don't use Eagles or fanless PCs. To me, they're way overpriced and underpowered. I use Intel NUCs exclusively--64GB RAM, Samsung 990 4TB NVMe SSDs, i7 6-core processors. The NUCs cost about $1,000 and paired with a Pegasus box ($300 to $600 depending on the model), they provide the same (in some cases better) functionality as the Eagle at half the cost with at least twice the computing power, and much less weight on the scope. I've had one NUC at DSW for 20 months with no issues and two more have been out there for a year with no issues (I do have a half-rack enclosure next to each rig to house all the electronics, which keeps them out of the direct weather). I've had the two NUCs here at home for three years, and while they're not outside all the time, they're out there most of the time. If a NUC has an issue, I'll just replace it. I can get one one from Amazon in 48 hours and have it ready to go and on site in another 48 hours. I do have one that failed a few years ago, but that was because I was using it for stacking and I ran into the SSD write limit. I replaced the SSD and it's fine--awaiting use as a backup should another one fail. 

And finally, I leave the two rigs here at home outside 24/7/365 under Telegizmos 365 covers. If it's going to rain, I'll unhook the NUCs and bring them in, but everything else stays outside. I know that will make some heads explode. But again, if I had to lug 300lbs of gear in and out and polar align all the time, I simply wouldn't do this. 

The whole point of this for me is to have fun and enjoy exploring the night sky. I'm not handy and have no mechanical bent. I don't enjoy tinkering with hardware. I do love running the rigs and processing images, though. So I find "best practices" to be a very fungible thing. To me, best practices are whatever helps me make this a joyful experience, which means eliminating as much unnecessary drudgery as possible. Your mileage may vary. I don't necessarily recommend that anyone else do any of these things, but they work for me and help make this experience much more fun and rewarding.
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darkmattersastro 11.95
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Timothy Martin:
If I had to take flats every night on all five of my scopes, I simply wouldn't do astrophotography at all. That would be about 1,500+ sets of flats per year, which would be impossible for me to store and manage--let alone deal with on a daily basis in image processing. No one's paying me to do this--and you couldn't pay me enough to take flats every night or, as some do, for every single rotation (it's not unusual for me to employ three different rotation angles in a single night on a particular rig).




We do flats every morning at dawn (via SkyFlats automation in Voyager) on every scope we run. We only use one set of flats to process the data, and if there are residual motes, we pull the nights flats that did not correct properly and recalibrate those subs using the better flats (again usually a mote shifted). Once the data for the month is all calibrated and checked for quality all of the other nights flats are deleted and never used. They are an insurance policy only and help increase the ability for us to properly calibrate data without the need to stamp out a mote at all.

We use Intel NUC computers and place a 4TB SSD in the top drive bay (these are cheap since they are SATA SSD's) which is more than enough storage for months of flats and months of project data without concern, even on our DR500 and DR350 systems that take exorbitant amounts of subs and both use the IMX461.

Folks can take nightly (or morningly) flats and not break their backs doing so. I would rather have those flats on the disk than to be looking at hours of data that will not correct appropriately that we would then have to clone stamp the motes out of. That would be terrible.
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AccidentalAstronomers 18.64
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Dark Matters Astrophotography:
We do flats every morning at dawn (via SkyFlats automation in Voyager) on every scope we run. We only use one set of flats to process the data, and if there are residual motes, we pull the nights flats that did not correct properly and recalibrate those subs using the better flats (again usually a mote shifted). Once the data for the month is all calibrated and checked for quality all of the other nights flats are deleted and never used. They are an insurance policy only and help increase the ability for us to properly calibrate data without the need to stamp out a mote at all.


That's pretty smart, Bill. If I were running a business for this, I would do the same.
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darkmattersastro 11.95
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Timothy Martin:
Dark Matters Astrophotography:
We do flats every morning at dawn (via SkyFlats automation in Voyager) on every scope we run. We only use one set of flats to process the data, and if there are residual motes, we pull the nights flats that did not correct properly and recalibrate those subs using the better flats (again usually a mote shifted). Once the data for the month is all calibrated and checked for quality all of the other nights flats are deleted and never used. They are an insurance policy only and help increase the ability for us to properly calibrate data without the need to stamp out a mote at all.


That's pretty smart, Bill. If I were running a business for this, I would do the same.


Thanks Tim.

Motes are the bane of my existence. Even with daily flats you will still run into a case where a mote shifted once or even twice during the night of imaging that leaves you with data you have no flats to match up to. At that point you either stamp the mote or chuck the data. When you are looking at a 1" FWHM sub with an uncorrectable mote, but otherwise beautiful data, it is really hard to choose to chuck it.
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AccidentalAstronomers 18.64
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Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Motes are the bane of my existence. Even with daily flats you will still run into a case where a mote shifted once or even twice during the night of imaging that leaves you with data you have no flats to match up to. At that point you either stamp the mote or chuck the data. When you are looking at a 1" FWHM sub with an uncorrectable mote, but otherwise beautiful data, it is really hard to choose to chuck it.


That's interesting. I just don't see them move. I wonder if it's because you're using Planewave mounts that slew incredibly fast. Mine are all 10Microns, and while I have the slew speed set to the max 10 degrees/sec, it's still pretty slow by comparison, right? Or maybe it just gets humid enough at DSW from time to time so that my motes just adhere to the filters and the sensor window.
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darkmattersastro 11.95
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Timothy Martin:
Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Motes are the bane of my existence. Even with daily flats you will still run into a case where a mote shifted once or even twice during the night of imaging that leaves you with data you have no flats to match up to. At that point you either stamp the mote or chuck the data. When you are looking at a 1" FWHM sub with an uncorrectable mote, but otherwise beautiful data, it is really hard to choose to chuck it.


That's interesting. I just don't see them move. I wonder if it's because you're using Planewave mounts that slew incredibly fast. Mine are all 10Microns, and while I have the slew speed set to the max 10 degrees/sec, it's still pretty slow by comparison, right? Or maybe it just gets humid enough at DSW from time to time so that my motes just adhere to the filters and the sensor window.



The major culprit was the Moravian C5 in our CDK14 which runs on an AP1100AE. To be fair that camera collected a lot of motes while it was in Animas (Dust Bowl), which we tried to clean once right after the move to HCRO, but did not get a good cleaning job on until I went down to Pie Town in Feb and took the hazmat kit with me. It is pretty clean now and has not run into mote problems since. 

The CDK20 has had one case of a shifting mote in the year we have ran it at Obstech. We had the camera sealed up for a light leak issue and that seems to have helped prevent moving motes. 

In both cases the motes are extremely difficult to even see in the data, but since we sell data to customers we go to great lengths to make sure it is as mote free as possible.
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Shannon_Foye 8.73
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Ashraf AbuSara:
For me when I click the Home button, it gives me the option to only HOME the focuser drawtube, and leave the rotator alone. Should spare you having to go through that manual process.


Good to know. I may have used the HOME function once over the last three years, and it was probably only out of curiosity.

I just have never had a need to re-establish the actual zero position of the drawtube because it does not appear that I have experienced drawtube drift until recently. The focuser was rarely used in freezing temperatures when I used it at home in Houston. The drawtube drift started as soon as it was opposed to the colder temps at Startfront Observatories.

I would recommend manually re-establishing the true zero position only if you're interested in accurately measuring the amount of position error and the rate of the drift.

I found that my NiteCrawler accumulated a drawtube position error of 19,980 steps from November to late January. When I manually reset the zero position yesterday so that I could take those screenshots, I found that my drawtube has accumulated an error of 4,355 since late January.

I want to keep track of these errors because I'm interested to see if the drawtube drift finally stops during the hot summer months. In other words, I want some type of confirmation that my drawtube position error is just a cold weather issue.

Ron at MoonLite is the one who clued me in to the possibility that cold weather could be causing the errors that I experienced this winter. He said that customers have had issues in extremely cold temps that were below the temp rating of the drawtube grease. The grease that he uses in the drawtube is rated for -10 F. However, he suggested that it could be thickening and causing me issues before the temperatures reach -10 F.
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aabosarah 9.31
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Shannon Foye:
Ashraf AbuSara:
For me when I click the Home button, it gives me the option to only HOME the focuser drawtube, and leave the rotator alone. Should spare you having to go through that manual process.


Good to know. I may have used the HOME function once over the last three years, and it was probably only out of curiosity.

I just have never had a need to re-establish the actual zero position of the drawtube because it does not appear that I have experienced drawtube drift until recently. The focuser was rarely used in freezing temperatures when I used it at home in Houston. The drawtube drift started as soon as it was opposed to the colder temps at Startfront Observatories.

I would recommend manually re-establishing the true zero position only if you're interested in accurately measuring the amount of position error and the rate of the drift.

I found that my NiteCrawler accumulated a drawtube position error of 19,980 steps from November to late January. When I manually reset the zero position yesterday so that I could take those screenshots, I found that my drawtube has accumulated an error of 4,355 since late January.

I want to keep track of these errors because I'm interested to see if the drawtube drift finally stops during the hot summer months. In other words, I want some type of confirmation that my drawtube position error is just a cold weather issue.

Ron at MoonLite is the one who clued me in to the possibility that cold weather could be causing the errors that I experienced this winter. He said that customers have had issues in extremely cold temps that were below the temp rating of the drawtube grease. The grease that he uses in the drawtube is rated for -10 F. However, he suggested that it could be thickening and causing me issues before the temperatures reach -10 F.

Seems reasonable as my issue also seems to be related to cold weather, although I did have an issue also with low voltage that ended up being due to a bad PSU, so I wonder if that exacerbated the problem.
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