I've started considering some options to upgrade my camera in the near future.
I currently use a ZWO ASI585MC Pro with a Celestron Nexstar Evolution 6.
I mostly use it with a .63 focal reducer (150mm aperture, 945mm focal length, f6.3).
I sometimes use a Starizona HyperStar on the Celestron (300mm focal length, f2).
I also don't want to move to a mono setup yet as I still have many things to learn using an OSC camera.
I'm happy with my current setup, and I've been able to improve the quality of my images moving from my Canon EOS R7.
That said, I wonder how much of a difference a higher-end camera would make, especially regarding noise.
Now, I should spend more time on targets and acquire more data for sure.
But I've been looking mainly at the specifications of the ZWO ASI2600MC Pro, with a 16-bit ADC versus 12-bit for the 585, bigger full well capacity, etc.
How much of a difference would such a camera make with my current setup for deep sky images (I'll most likely keep the 585 for planetary because of the frame rate).
Would it be worth upgrading, or should I keep using the 585 and simply spend more time on targets?
Also, the 585 has 2.9um pixels while the 2600 has 3.76um.
Is it going to be an issue with the HyperStar regarding undersampling?
Thanks a lot for any insights and recommendations.
Clear skies!
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If you are looking to future-proof the next acquisition then an IMX571 based camera makes sense and has no down side except it might be wasted on the C6 if field correction isn't up to snuff with the larger sensor. Otherwise, if you think you might be tempted into monochrome imaging some time then an IMX533 based camera makes more sense; less constraints on field correction, 14bit and larger pixels (more sensitivity). I wouldn't worrying about undersampling at 300mm, you are looking more at throughput rather than resolution with a prime-focus SCT anywway.
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Honestly, the sensor on the 585 is pretty good... it's like one of those things where an expert like Adam Block or whoever will be able to easily tell the differences and know how and why do change every setting to reach it's maximum potential... But for someone still learning, you're not really going to notice the difference when it comes to wells and ADC. What you WILL notice is the dramatically different field of view you'll get going from the 585 to the 2600.... That alone would be worth it to me... Have you played around with field of view calculators? Check it: https://imgur.com/a/naDV6wR Using the 2600 compared to the 585 is like doing a 4 panel mosiac at once! I've used my 2600 from 55mm to 1400mm and I haven't had noticeable issues with sampling... But I'm not an expert yet, so they could be there and my processing isn't quite up to snuff...
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But also, that expanded FOV brings with it much tighter tolerances for image quality out to the corners, BlurX not withstanding.
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It's hard to be able to give you a solid suggestion without understanding what you're hoping for. An upgraded camera for example the ASI2600mc pro, is definitely an upgrade but the biggest thing you're going to get is a bigger field of view. If you're happy with your field of view it would be hard to justify upgrading your camera. I know that sounds crazy. I sold a 585, and now have a 2600. But I don't feel like my image quality is that much better. What I do feel like is that I get a much bigger field of view. I think that whole oversampling under sampling thing on the pixel size is way overblown. I understand it, but I just don't think it really makes that big of a difference with the CMOS sensor.
My 2600 is better than my 585, but it is not $1,000 better. Am I happy with my camera,? Of course. Do I wish I still had the 585, yes I do. There's one thing in the 585 that I can't really find anywhere else and that is IR sensitivity. That camera will take reasonable images of a Galaxy even in pretty bad light pollution if I put on a good filter that lets in IR light. I guess it comes down to what are you looking for in an upgrade? I think where I was disappointed was that it didn't allow me to image any faster, I don't know why, and I never read it anywhere, but I really hoped that upgrading my camera to a more expensive camera, I would be able to image quicker. It just doesn't work that way.
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Thanks a lot to everyone for the replies and insights! This is very helpful to me.
The wider field of view of the APSC sensor is nice, but I’m pretty happy with the FOV of the 585.
I’ve used an APSC with my Canon, and while some targets could benefit from it, it’s usually not an issue.
Very big targets won’t fit on the 2600 at 945mm either, and that's why I have the HyperStar.
As a beginner, so many factors contribute to image quality that it can be difficult to tell which one is the most limiting.
Is it mostly my capture skills, editing skills, the amount of data I have, or the hardware?
I know I have much to learn in all areas, but I have seen massive improvements in image quality since switching from my R7 to the 585.
Of course, this was expected with a dedicated and cooled camera, but I wanted to know if I would see a similar difference with a higher-end camera.
Based on the comments, it seems not the case.
The 2600 looks great, and I might still consider it at some point, but I won’t put that as a priority.
For now, spending time getting more and better data and improving my processing seems like a better investment.
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Jean-David Gadina:
The 2600 looks great, and I might still consider it at some point, but I won’t put that as a priority.
For now, spending time getting more and better data and improving my processing seems like a better investment. Sounds like a very well thought out approach! Best of luck!
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Jean-David Gadina:
I've started considering some options to upgrade my camera in the near future.
I currently use a ZWO ASI585MC Pro with a Celestron Nexstar Evolution 6.
I mostly use it with a .63 focal reducer (150mm aperture, 945mm focal length, f6.3).
I sometimes use a Starizona HyperStar on the Celestron (300mm focal length, f2).
I also don't want to move to a mono setup yet as I still have many things to learn using an OSC camera.
I'm happy with my current setup, and I've been able to improve the quality of my images moving from my Canon EOS R7.
That said, I wonder how much of a difference a higher-end camera would make, especially regarding noise.
Now, I should spend more time on targets and acquire more data for sure.
But I've been looking mainly at the specifications of the ZWO ASI2600MC Pro, with a 16-bit ADC versus 12-bit for the 585, bigger full well capacity, etc.
How much of a difference would such a camera make with my current setup for deep sky images (I'll most likely keep the 585 for planetary because of the frame rate).
Would it be worth upgrading, or should I keep using the 585 and simply spend more time on targets?
Also, the 585 has 2.9um pixels while the 2600 has 3.76um.
Is it going to be an issue with the HyperStar regarding undersampling?
Thanks a lot for any insights and recommendations.
Clear skies! Hi @Jean-David Gadina , Based on what you have mentioned, my advice would be to decide based on the FOV and cost that your would like. You have already won over the battle of deciding between mono vs OSC. and your FOV from your telescope setup is also great i.e. 300 at f2 and ~945 at f6.3. So check the FOV with a asi2600 or 533mc pro etc. (533 is half the price of 2600). If you decide to keep the 585mc pro then the 2600mc pro with the aps-c sensor is a better option based on FOV. the QE response of the 585mc is great and it has higher QE at the near-IR/IR wavelength which is good for smaller galaxies imaging. The other factor(theoretical) that I look from the specs is the read noise and dark current (again based on your bortle skies or sky noise this may not be that relevant). the 2600MC and the 533mc pro has a great thermal noise response meaning theoretically let say at -10deg sensor cooling you can go for ~45min (again theoretically  ) subs before the thermal noise start to overcome the read noise, whereas this theoretical exposure sub length at -10deg would be ~10mins with the 585mc. I barely go above 2~3mins so this is useless but good to keep in mind. So my recommendation will be play with FOV with different targets and see what you like. 2nd if price is not a concern, go for the apsc 2600 and definitely keep the 585. you can always sell the 585 if you no longer use but I think 585mc is a good option for smaller planetary nebulas or galaxies. All the best and clear skies
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Amit:
Jean-David Gadina:
I've started considering some options to upgrade my camera in the near future.
I currently use a ZWO ASI585MC Pro with a Celestron Nexstar Evolution 6.
I mostly use it with a .63 focal reducer (150mm aperture, 945mm focal length, f6.3).
I sometimes use a Starizona HyperStar on the Celestron (300mm focal length, f2).
I also don't want to move to a mono setup yet as I still have many things to learn using an OSC camera.
I'm happy with my current setup, and I've been able to improve the quality of my images moving from my Canon EOS R7.
That said, I wonder how much of a difference a higher-end camera would make, especially regarding noise.
Now, I should spend more time on targets and acquire more data for sure.
But I've been looking mainly at the specifications of the ZWO ASI2600MC Pro, with a 16-bit ADC versus 12-bit for the 585, bigger full well capacity, etc.
How much of a difference would such a camera make with my current setup for deep sky images (I'll most likely keep the 585 for planetary because of the frame rate).
Would it be worth upgrading, or should I keep using the 585 and simply spend more time on targets?
Also, the 585 has 2.9um pixels while the 2600 has 3.76um.
Is it going to be an issue with the HyperStar regarding undersampling?
Thanks a lot for any insights and recommendations.
Clear skies!
Hi @Jean-David Gadina , Based on what you have mentioned, my advice would be to decide based on the FOV and cost that your would like. You have already won over the battle of deciding between mono vs OSC. and your FOV from your telescope setup is also great i.e. 300 at f2 and ~945 at f6.3. So check the FOV with a asi2600 or 533mc pro etc. (533 is half the price of 2600). If you decide to keep the 585mc pro then the 2600mc pro with the aps-c sensor is a better option based on FOV.
the QE response of the 585mc is great and it has higher QE at the near-IR/IR wavelength which is good for smaller galaxies imaging.
The other factor(theoretical) that I look from the specs is the read noise and dark current (again based on your bortle skies or sky noise this may not be that relevant). the 2600MC and the 533mc pro has a great thermal noise response meaning theoretically let say at -10deg sensor cooling you can go for ~45min (again theoretically ) subs before the thermal noise start to overcome the read noise, whereas this theoretical exposure sub length at -10deg would be ~10mins with the 585mc. I barely go above 2~3mins so this is useless but good to keep in mind.
So my recommendation will be play with FOV with different targets and see what you like. 2nd if price is not a concern, go for the apsc 2600 and definitely keep the 585. you can always sell the 585 if you no longer use but I think 585mc is a good option for smaller planetary nebulas or galaxies.
All the best and clear skies Fully agree with this statement. Quick comment, the asi533 is same width as as the asi585 but square instead of widescreen/rectangle. Not really much more FOV. Also, unless you are in really good skies and have a really good mount, I cant see you taking more than 10 min subs EVER. I am a 180 second guy and occasionally do 3 minutes
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Clayton Ostler:
Not really much more FOV. Twice.
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Clayton Ostler:
I am a 180 second guy and occasionally do 3 minutes Ummmmmm....  |
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There is a HUGE difference between the 2600 and the 585… 9mp vs. 26mp.
I have the 294 and the 533 and they are not in the same ballpark as the 2600mc.
If you are planning to stick with this hobby you won't regret the upgrade at all.
I can do a 50% crop on a 2600mc and still have 1 1/2 times the pixels of a 585.
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Dan Kearl:
There is a HUGE difference between the 2600 and the 585... 9mp vs. 26mp.
I have the 294 and the 533 and they are not in the same ballpark as the 2600mc.
If you are planning to stick with this hobby you won't regret the upgrade at all.
I can do a 50% crop on a 2600mc and still have 1 1/2 times the pixels of a 585. OP was specifically asking about quality of the images. Yes, the 2600 will have a much bigger sensor, but the quality of the images themselves will be nearly identical.
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Dan Kearl:
There is a HUGE difference between the 2600 and the 585... 9mp vs. 26mp.
I have the 294 and the 533 and they are not in the same ballpark as the 2600mc.
If you are planning to stick with this hobby you won't regret the upgrade at all.
I can do a 50% crop on a 2600mc and still have 1 1/2 times the pixels of a 585.
OP was specifically asking about quality of the images. Yes, the 2600 will have a much bigger sensor, but the quality of the images themselves will be nearly identical.
There is no way a camera with 9mp will have any where close to the quality of a 26mp camera.
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Dan Kearl:
Dan Kearl:
There is a HUGE difference between the 2600 and the 585... 9mp vs. 26mp.
I have the 294 and the 533 and they are not in the same ballpark as the 2600mc.
If you are planning to stick with this hobby you won't regret the upgrade at all.
I can do a 50% crop on a 2600mc and still have 1 1/2 times the pixels of a 585.
OP was specifically asking about quality of the images. Yes, the 2600 will have a much bigger sensor, but the quality of the images themselves will be nearly identical.
There is no way a camera with 9mp will have any where close to the quality of a 26mp camera. Size isn't quality. If you cropped down the image from the 2600 to the same size as the 585 I would wager that you wouldn't see a difference. The only way it makes sense is if you want and can cover the much larger FOV the bigger sensor provides. Part of the reason people are so impressed with the results from large sensor is because the enlargement needed to cover your screen is much less so yeah, it looks great. I know that's another discussion but it is relevant.
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Tony Gondola:
Dan Kearl:
Dan Kearl:
There is a HUGE difference between the 2600 and the 585... 9mp vs. 26mp.
I have the 294 and the 533 and they are not in the same ballpark as the 2600mc.
If you are planning to stick with this hobby you won't regret the upgrade at all.
I can do a 50% crop on a 2600mc and still have 1 1/2 times the pixels of a 585.
OP was specifically asking about quality of the images. Yes, the 2600 will have a much bigger sensor, but the quality of the images themselves will be nearly identical.
There is no way a camera with 9mp will have any where close to the quality of a 26mp camera.
Size isn't quality. If you cropped down the image from the 2600 to the same size as the 585 I would wager that you wouldn't see a difference. The only way it makes sense is if you want and can cover the much larger FOV the bigger sensor provides. Part of the reason people are so impressed with the results from large sensor is because the enlargement needed to cover your screen is much less so yeah, it looks great. I know that's another discussion but it is relevant. Image size in pixels is quality in the photography world. Try to make a 24 x 18 print of an image captured with a 9 mp camera. There is a reason that Crop and full frame sensors in any camera discipline cost a lot more is because they provide much better image quality. Size does matter. If the only thing you care about is what an image looks like on a phone then I agree with you but most professional photographers would not.
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But this isn't "the photography world", it's the ASTRO-photography world and the rules a pretty different. Last I printed something astro-related was 20 years ago and it was medium format. Who's shooting medium format here? Apart from me…
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andrea tasselli:
But this isn't "the photography world", it's the ASTRO-photography world and the rules a pretty different. Last I printed something astro-related was 20 years ago and it was medium format. Who's shooting medium format here? Apart from me... That's fine but some do pursue this for prints and photographic quality. I would say most of the people who lease remote photography sites are not shooting with 9mp cameras. I am not saying there is no place for cameras like the 585 and the OP may well decide to keep his and not upgrade and be happy. If you want to argue that cameras like the 2600 are "kind of" equal, then you are wrong, no offense.
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If you are slightly under sampled with the 2600 and want to shoot small targets that easily fit on the 585 chip, then I’d contend that the 585 could produce better image even if you want to print. More pixels on target, so more pixels to print and potentially more detail on the target.
Of you’re well sampled with the 2600, then you just have to crop the 2600 a lot
I’m considering getting a minicam8 585 mono camera to complement my 2600 since I image at 1000mm f4. On good seeing nights, it could better resolve the small targets. For average seeing, the 2600 could do slightly better with better well depth and dynamic range.
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Rick Krejci:
If you are slightly under sampled with the 2600 and want to shoot small targets that easily fit on the 585 chip, then I’d contend that the 585 could produce better image even if you want to print. More pixels on target, so more pixels to print and potentially more detail on the target.
Of you’re well sampled with the 2600, then you just have to crop the 2600 a lot
I’m considering getting a minicam8 585 mono camera to complement my 2600 since I image at 1000mm f4. On good seeing nights, it could better resolve the small targets. For average seeing, the 2600 could do slightly better with better well depth and dynamic range. You have a great portfolio, all imaged with 2600 cameras. There must be a reason for that. I have wasted a lot of money in this hobby trying to "save" money. I am attempting to save the 0P money.
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Dan Kearl:
Tony Gondola:
Dan Kearl:
Dan Kearl:
There is a HUGE difference between the 2600 and the 585... 9mp vs. 26mp.
I have the 294 and the 533 and they are not in the same ballpark as the 2600mc.
If you are planning to stick with this hobby you won't regret the upgrade at all.
I can do a 50% crop on a 2600mc and still have 1 1/2 times the pixels of a 585.
OP was specifically asking about quality of the images. Yes, the 2600 will have a much bigger sensor, but the quality of the images themselves will be nearly identical.
There is no way a camera with 9mp will have any where close to the quality of a 26mp camera.
Size isn't quality. If you cropped down the image from the 2600 to the same size as the 585 I would wager that you wouldn't see a difference. The only way it makes sense is if you want and can cover the much larger FOV the bigger sensor provides. Part of the reason people are so impressed with the results from large sensor is because the enlargement needed to cover your screen is much less so yeah, it looks great. I know that's another discussion but it is relevant.
Image size in pixels is quality in the photography world. Try to make a 24 x 18 print of an image captured with a 9 mp camera.
There is a reason that Crop and full frame sensors in any camera discipline cost a lot more is because they provide much better image quality.
Size does matter.
If the only thing you care about is what an image looks like on a phone then I agree with you but most professional photographers would not. You just don't get the point I'm making. If you could take the exact same picture with the small sensor and the large picture you'd be right, the large sensor wins but in this case, you can't, not with the same optical system.
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Dan Kearl:
Rick Krejci:
If you are slightly under sampled with the 2600 and want to shoot small targets that easily fit on the 585 chip, then I’d contend that the 585 could produce better image even if you want to print. More pixels on target, so more pixels to print and potentially more detail on the target.
Of you’re well sampled with the 2600, then you just have to crop the 2600 a lot
I’m considering getting a minicam8 585 mono camera to complement my 2600 since I image at 1000mm f4. On good seeing nights, it could better resolve the small targets. For average seeing, the 2600 could do slightly better with better well depth and dynamic range.
I have wasted a lot of money in this hobby trying to "save" money.
I am attempting to save the 0P money. I just... like... what? The OP already has a 585. The 2600 would be costing him money. We are saying that he won't get an increase in QUALITY, only an increase in SIZE. If the OP is happy with the size, as he stated, then from his point of view upgrading to the 2600 is not a good value yet. If you took a crop of 3800x2100 of any 2600 MC pro image and compared it to a similar one of the 585mc pro, assuming both the data and the processing is well done, then the majority of people looking at it would not be able to tell the difference between them.
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Dan Kearl:
Rick Krejci:
If you are slightly under sampled with the 2600 and want to shoot small targets that easily fit on the 585 chip, then I’d contend that the 585 could produce better image even if you want to print. More pixels on target, so more pixels to print and potentially more detail on the target.
Of you’re well sampled with the 2600, then you just have to crop the 2600 a lot
I’m considering getting a minicam8 585 mono camera to complement my 2600 since I image at 1000mm f4. On good seeing nights, it could better resolve the small targets. For average seeing, the 2600 could do slightly better with better well depth and dynamic range.
I have wasted a lot of money in this hobby trying to "save" money.
I am attempting to save the 0P money.
I just... like... what?
The OP already has a 585. The 2600 would be costing him money. We are saying that he won't get an increase in QUALITY, only an increase in SIZE. If the OP is happy with the size, as he stated, then from his point of view upgrading to the 2600 is not a good value yet.
If you took a crop of 3800x2100 of any 2600 MC pro image and compared it to a similar one of the 585mc pro, assuming both the data and the processing is well done, then the majority of people looking at it would not be able to tell the difference between them.
Ok, you win. There is no point in buying any camera over $500. Most people in this hobby especially those who win awards here are wasting money.
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I will say of I were going to invest in a 2600, it wouldn’t be a color one. I’d keep the 585 color for the hyper star that needs all the pixel density you can give it and get a mono 2600 with filters for the longer focal length. Look on astromart or cloudy nights classifieds. They are loaded with 2600mc’s for sale and 2600mm wanted ads.
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