Community opinion on describing targetted objects using AI? AstroBin Platform open discussions community forum · AmyWarble · ... · 40 · 797 · 0

I'd draw comparison to the widespread use of AI tools used during the processing of images, both here on AstroBin and in the wider community. The difference here at least is transparency; there is, I believe, a general expectation that you declare any major equipment / tooling you've used during capture and processing. Something that isn't necessarily true elsewhere.

That being said, personally, I see AI tooling (including LLMs) as just that, another tool - just another step in the workflow so to speak. Sure you can use an LLM to wholesale generate a description for you, but you then accept the risk that the output might, for example, contain factual errors, not "sound like you" or otherwise flow poorly. In the same way that, if you misuse AI deconvolution or noise reduction you can absolutely tell they've been used - and potentially ruin the resultant image.

I've actually been down this road myself, I started this year trying to use LLMs (Gemini in my case) to help with producing descriptions. At first I tried what is being suggested in this thread, wholesale generating large blocks of text based on prompts - an approach I used exactly once (M33). I never really liked the result, it just... didn't feel like me? Since then I've changed tactic, I now use them for two real purposes; producing talking points for me to write about or proofreading the final description for spelling/grammar/style. I've found this second approach far more.... comfortable.

I think my summary would be: knock yourself out. If you're concerned about what other people think, maybe consider the transparency point I talked about above. The description of the image, at least in my view, isn't the creative article we're really interested in here on AstroBin - its purpose is to simply describe the image.

Transparency - I used Gemini to check spelling, grammar and style on this post 

Tony Gondola:
This thread is a good example as to why the use of AI to do simple things is an another step in making people in general, more reliant on technology and less able to do things without it. There are a lot of logical holes in this argument but hear me out.

As we become more reliant on technology we become less capable as human beings. I don't remember phone numbers anymore because I use a cell phone. I'm not very good at remembering complex directions anymore because I use navigation. When I moved to Tulsa a few years ago I was shocked at how hard it was for me to learn my way around without it. There are many examples like this where the use of technology results in loss of personal capability. Our brains simply don't have to work as hard to do everyday things.

The post about making art for D&D and this entire thread makes my point, I think it shows that the overuse of AI erodes learning and makes us less capable without it. If someone can easily use AI to make an avatar, there's less impetus to learn how to do it yourself. That's an opportunity for learning lost. If it's a struggle to write a few lines about an image you created, that's a warning that another basic skill is being degraded. Our grade school teachers would be shocked. Technology is great, we couldn't create the images we do without it, but, we have to be honest about what is doing the heavy lifting here because it's not us. 

I don't pretend to know what the answer is and there very well might not be one because at heart, we are lazy primates. I am convinced however that the use of technology and especially AI makes the human species, in a way, less capable. Worse than that, it makes us lazy and less able to survive. Everything is great until it isn't.

I do understand the sentiment, but this is a Luddite view of the world. We are already using tools where basically we don't really know how they work, but we adjust a few parameters until we get what we want. Do you know the mathematics and direct computations going on for denoising or deconvolution? AI is just another tool that in theory can make life easier. If you ask me whether I would like to go back to having to remember phone numbers or to drive with a map book on my lap to navigate the streets, the answer is no. Even if that means my recall for numbers or my recall of driving routes is worse, that is a trade off I am willing to make.
Does a motor car make us lazy, because instead of that 10 minute drive we should walk for an hour.......yes perhaps. But that 50 mins could be spent doing something more useful like spending time with family.
All technology is a double edged sword and has its positives and negatives. AI certainly can create issues, but as was said "resistance is futile".

Niall MacNeill:

Tony Gondola:
This thread is a good example as to why the use of AI to do simple things is an another step in making people in general, more reliant on technology and less able to do things without it. There are a lot of logical holes in this argument but hear me out.

As we become more reliant on technology we become less capable as human beings. I don't remember phone numbers anymore because I use a cell phone. I'm not very good at remembering complex directions anymore because I use navigation. When I moved to Tulsa a few years ago I was shocked at how hard it was for me to learn my way around without it. There are many examples like this where the use of technology results in loss of personal capability. Our brains simply don't have to work as hard to do everyday things.

The post about making art for D&D and this entire thread makes my point, I think it shows that the overuse of AI erodes learning and makes us less capable without it. If someone can easily use AI to make an avatar, there's less impetus to learn how to do it yourself. That's an opportunity for learning lost. If it's a struggle to write a few lines about an image you created, that's a warning that another basic skill is being degraded. Our grade school teachers would be shocked. Technology is great, we couldn't create the images we do without it, but, we have to be honest about what is doing the heavy lifting here because it's not us. 

I don't pretend to know what the answer is and there very well might not be one because at heart, we are lazy primates. I am convinced however that the use of technology and especially AI makes the human species, in a way, less capable. Worse than that, it makes us lazy and less able to survive. Everything is great until it isn't.

I do understand the sentiment, but this is a Luddite view of the world. We are already using tools where basically we don't really know how they work, but we adjust a few parameters until we get what we want. Do you know the mathematics and direct computations going on for denoising or deconvolution? AI is just another tool that in theory can make life easier. If you ask me whether I would like to go back to having to remember phone numbers or to drive with a map book on my lap to navigate the streets, the answer is no. Even if that means my recall for numbers or my recall of driving routes is worse, that is a trade off I am willing to make.
Does a motor car make us lazy, because instead of that 10 minute drive we should walk for an hour.......yes perhaps. But that 50 mins could be spent doing something more useful like spending time with family.
All technology is a double edged sword and has its positives and negatives. AI certainly can create issues, but as was said "resistance is futile".

I've specifically "liked" the last few posts, to highlight how this discussion has me swinging wildly back and forth, because, as with even other posts above, I read one and say, yes that makes good sense, and then I read the next post as a counter-point to the previous one and say "yes that makes good sense".  Yes, to some extent technology has always created some of the benefits and problems that seem to be paramount in this discussion.  Maybe the issue here is that AI seems to be impacting society at an accelerating pace that it is we humans who cannot handle it?  Forget AI, a simple example that I have noticed lately, at least in my new community, is the increase in the number of electric bikes.  The benefit?  As my wife and I were biking (pedaling) along the local river trail, we saw more people roughly our age (mid too late 60s) "wheeling" along a comfortable pace without really pedaling or pedaling at all.  The good?  Well, people who might not bike anymore actually getting out and enjoying fresh air, and the sights.  However the bad?  In my neighborhood, so many kids out and about on their bikes.  Used to be that kids all had bikes and spent hours after school tooling around neighborhoods, up and down hills, etc.  Now they just push a button and go.  Unlike the adults, kids don't even do the fake pedaling.  Childhood obesity much?!

I am reticent to even bring this up, but people here will do what people here do.  It may not cause a stir over the next few years.  And as Niall states, there are elements of AI that we now find routine and acceptable.  I hope someone completely disagrees with me to what I am about to say and shows me why this is not going to happen, but what of the following:  In the not very distant future, someone new will join AstroBin and start posting images.  These will be quite nice and Top Picks will come to this person.  Eventually this person will start winning IOTDs, etc., etc.  And then it will be discovered that this person is not even a person.  This being a Turing Test for someone to prove a point with an ugly result.  Will people here then sit up and take notice?

Alan Brunelle:
In the not very distant future, someone new will join AstroBin and start posting images.  These will be quite nice and Top Picks will come to this person.  Eventually this person will start winning IOTDs, etc., etc.  And then it will be discovered that this person is not even a person.

Sadly, I agree that this is inevitable. 

Niall MacNeill:

Tony Gondola:
This thread is a good example as to why the use of AI to do simple things is an another step in making people in general, more reliant on technology and less able to do things without it. There are a lot of logical holes in this argument but hear me out.

As we become more reliant on technology we become less capable as human beings. I don't remember phone numbers anymore because I use a cell phone. I'm not very good at remembering complex directions anymore because I use navigation. When I moved to Tulsa a few years ago I was shocked at how hard it was for me to learn my way around without it. There are many examples like this where the use of technology results in loss of personal capability. Our brains simply don't have to work as hard to do everyday things.

The post about making art for D&D and this entire thread makes my point, I think it shows that the overuse of AI erodes learning and makes us less capable without it. If someone can easily use AI to make an avatar, there's less impetus to learn how to do it yourself. That's an opportunity for learning lost. If it's a struggle to write a few lines about an image you created, that's a warning that another basic skill is being degraded. Our grade school teachers would be shocked. Technology is great, we couldn't create the images we do without it, but, we have to be honest about what is doing the heavy lifting here because it's not us. 

I don't pretend to know what the answer is and there very well might not be one because at heart, we are lazy primates. I am convinced however that the use of technology and especially AI makes the human species, in a way, less capable. Worse than that, it makes us lazy and less able to survive. Everything is great until it isn't.

I do understand the sentiment, but this is a Luddite view of the world. We are already using tools where basically we don't really know how they work, but we adjust a few parameters until we get what we want. Do you know the mathematics and direct computations going on for denoising or deconvolution? AI is just another tool that in theory can make life easier. If you ask me whether I would like to go back to having to remember phone numbers or to drive with a map book on my lap to navigate the streets, the answer is no. Even if that means my recall for numbers or my recall of driving routes is worse, that is a trade off I am willing to make.
Does a motor car make us lazy, because instead of that 10 minute drive we should walk for an hour.......yes perhaps. But that 50 mins could be spent doing something more useful like spending time with family.
All technology is a double edged sword and has its positives and negatives. AI certainly can create issues, but as was said "resistance is futile".

I don't disagree but Luddite might be a strong term.

Here on Astrobin, I'm not generally interested in information about the object unless it's something unique or little known. I can't imagine there's a whole lot to say about M31 that we don't all know. I'm much more interested in how people practice this craft, why they do it that way, and what interests them about the target. Even better--tell me a true story about it that makes me laugh or makes me care in some way.

I'm not sure there's an AI out there that can put that together--and if there is, well, that's friggin' creepy. If I want to know what's in google or ChatGPT results, I can get that myself if I'm so inclined. When it comes to posting to other platforms like FB or Insta, it makes some sense to include some pedantry about the target because that's a completely different audience. But I don't think questionable AI prose plagiarized equally from astronomers and flat earthers has much utility here.

Tony Gondola:
This thread is a good example as to why the use of AI to do simple things is an another step in making people in general, more reliant on technology and less able to do things without it. There are a lot of logical holes in this argument but hear me out.

As we become more reliant on technology we become less capable as human beings. I don't remember phone numbers anymore because I use a cell phone. I'm not very good at remembering complex directions anymore because I use navigation. When I moved to Tulsa a few years ago I was shocked at how hard it was for me to learn my way around without it. There are many examples like this where the use of technology results in loss of personal capability. Our brains simply don't have to work as hard to do everyday things.

The post about making art for D&D and this entire thread makes my point, I think it shows that the overuse of AI erodes learning and makes us less capable without it. If someone can easily use AI to make an avatar, there's less impetus to learn how to do it yourself. That's an opportunity for learning lost. If it's a struggle to write a few lines about an image you created, that's a warning that another basic skill is being degraded. Our grade school teachers would be shocked. Technology is great, we couldn't create the images we do without it, but, we have to be honest about what is doing the heavy lifting here because it's not us. 

I don't pretend to know what the answer is and there very well might not be one because at heart, we are lazy primates. I am convinced however that the use of technology and especially AI makes the human species, in a way, less capable. Worse than that, it makes us lazy and less able to survive. Everything is great until it isn't.

You have a strong point when it comes to kids.  Kids should not use LLMs, or drink beer, or engage in any of the plethora of activities adults can engage in.  Doing so can impact their neurological/cognitive development because as you said, they aren't learning skills, possibly even including how to reason.  Their development can be degraded because they've off-loaded thinking to the LLM.  I hold firm to this belief: LLMs should be regulated so you must be 18 or older to use them at all.  We need regulations around the ethical use of AI; people should not be allowed to sell a book written by ChatGPT while passing it off as their own work.

I worry about kids today.  Before AI came on the scene kids entering college in the US can frequently struggle with reading.  Now that we have AI...

I've had the same experience as you regarding cell phones and maps.  I have three phone numbers memorized in case of emergency, and that's it (four if you count 911).  However, I think a similar argument could be made against the specialization of skills and labor in general.  I don't know how to grow food.  I've never needed to farm.  I also don't know the first thing about building a house or barn, unless its made of Legos. These are skills I never needed to develop because I can rely on others to do it for me even as I specialize in programming and music.  My inability to farm or build structures that stand up for more than ten minutes is a skill loss, sure, but it's made up for with other skills.  I view AI in the same vein.  It can free up some kinds of labor so I can focus on and specialize in others.  The loss of a skill doesn't necessarily mean a net loss or that survival is impacted.

As an aside, I worry about the next Carrington Event.  We are so reliant on modern technology that a CE would be cataclysmic.  But that's neither here nor there.

The skill loss argument doesn't apply to my gaming group (AFAIK).  We're all in our 40s (one guy in his 30s).  I have never been able to draw anything beyond basic stick figures and fluffy clouds.  I literally have zero talent when it comes to drawing.  It wasn't for lack of trying.  Yet, my time and energy were freed to learn other skills with much less effort and much more gain.  No skills are getting degraded, just moved around.  When I was able to create art for the first time in my life, I was elated.  It was like receiving a stool so I could see over the fence.  Using a stool to get higher doesn't cause harm.  I now have a capability, provided by a tool, that makes my world bigger, not smaller, and my time is free to explore other skills.

I am basically arguing, without any scientific basis to back this up, that using a tool to achieve some goal frees the mind up to learn other skills.  At least, for adults.  Kids shouldn't use LLMs at all.

I would be interested to see if anyone here can come up with a (decent) ballad on the fly while in the middle of a gaming session.  None of my gaming group are songwriters or have any training as stand-up comics (who learn to think quickly on their feet).  We're playing a game that already consumes a lot of time.  And no one in my gaming group is denying that AI is doing the heavy lifting when it comes to ballads and avatars. 

There are many people who claim AI-produced content as their own, but that is unethical behavior and isn't an intrinsic property of the AI itself.  Some human-made tools don't have ethical uses.  Until we're defending the planet against alien spaceships, I'd argue that nuclear weapons are always unethical.  I don't believe LLMs fall into that category.  We can make ethical use of them.  It is very easy and tempting to use them unethically.

Aaron Lisco:
I was not saying your purchasing data ...I was just pointing out that  this is the beginning of the slippery slope of AI and NON accusation of DATA  ...and the need to separate the Images into those groups ...they are all fine but the distinction needs to be drawn and labeled as such..... I was NOT accusing you of anything sorry to cause offense...I agree if you take the data and process it then YES you are and Astrophotographer even if AI writes the description ...If you Purchase Data or do not maintain a Telescope then you are in my mind a DATA collector and processor ONLY!

Yeah, sorry I jumped the gun on that.  I see how I misread your post.  We're all good.

Aaron Lisco:
made with AI

Thanks to Russ Croman, roughly 100% of pics posted here are "made with AI." But I get the distinction. The photos you're talking about were made entirely by AI. Still, it's an increasingly gray area here.