Tilt Generic equipment discussions · Thomas Rider · ... · 34 · 954 · 2

Overcast_Observatory 19.90
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Tony Gondola:
So really the problem is everything in the imaging train needs to be machined to a higher degree of accuracy and it all has to be held in place so that nothing changes with different orientations. I suspect the last part of that is the hardest to effect.




Yep. That and we have access to large chip cameras with optically torturous small pixels, and put them on telescopes that can barely contain the chip within the corrected field. Most imaging systems have some level of field curvature at the corners of FF even at perfect spacing so tilt compounds with this and becomes an issue...  unless you have something like a CDK with a massive flat field.
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StewartWilliam 5.21
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Thomas Rider:
AstroShed:
Thomas Rider:
AstroShed:
Thomas Rider:
AstroShed (StewartWilliam)
Looks like you need one of  these, and quick..👍🏻

https://youtu.be/iyH7vsAqcDA?si=Ovhelyh9OJwAY22A


This is awesome! Ordered

Yes, it’s an excellent tool, and takes all the hard work out of tilt, especially when trying to fix out in the dark and cold..
I built my own version of this a couple of years ago and it worked well, but this tool is on another level, and sooooooo much easier..

Order came in and messed with my tilt. The tool and program is extremely easy to use and found my camera had really bad tilt and was able to get it nearly perfect fairly easy. Took me a like an hour or two as I never adjusted tilt before in my life and it was a lot of trial and error. I cannot imagine trying to do that outside by taking images and guessing from there.

Glad you got it sorted, but why did it take so long with the tool, 2 hours, that is a long time when it can be done in a few mins ?

So originally spent some time but the software was not working and spent a few hours with nothing to show for it. Emailed Erik and he released an updated version that fixed the issue I had the next day. I found with my sensor had so much tilt at certain spots the red laser would barely be visible. Because of this I would lose the adjustment crosshair mid tilt adjustment. I exited the procedure and turned the exposure time all the way up and it worked ok after that.

I also found that the software would read different depending on how I rotated the unit on the camera. I found I could take measurements and it would get a different reading every time. So I found if I firmly pushed the unit towards my camera as I rotate, let it sit for like 5 seconds then take a reading I could get very close results to previous reading. When I was done I checked the numbers 3 times and my Critical focus zone actually would be about 2-3 microns below the theoretical. Same with new critical focus zone. However depending on how I rotated it, it would be anywhere from 2 microns different to 15-18 different. It fit great on my M54 adapter so not sure what the story is, but took a while to work though the issues. I kept adjusting because I would be at like 10 microns away and do a adjustment and then be like 18 microns away. Once I learned to firmly pushed towards camera during rotation it was super consistent. It was one step forward two steps back until I found how to rotate.

Now when I am at the main screen after hooking up the adapter and I rotate the adjuster in a 360 the red dot barely moves at all showing my sensor is tilt free. Before it made a huge circle.

I have unit number 84 I believe. I feel the customers are a bit of the beta testers for it but honestly they were super responsive to my problems and questions and now that I know how to make it work (maybe just in my case) I could adjust tilt on any camera in a matter of minutes I am sure

Yes, even the slightest pressure on one side of the unit can throw the results out, but we are working in microns here, 1 micron = 1/1000th of a millimetre, it’s a very small margin, and really as long as you have less then about 20 microns of tilt, it will not show in any images, I found the same as you that if I rotate it differently I got differing results, and this was purely down to pressing mote on one side of the unit than the other, when rotating in the opposite direction, I think it’s best to do it exactly the same every time you use for best results.
glad you are happy, I have told them about all the software updates and told them to open a beta Chanel for people who want to test, before releasing to the rest of us..hope they listen, they said they would..👍🏻
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StewartWilliam 5.21
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Tony Gondola:
This really makes me wonder why the camera manufactures don't do this as a matter of course? It could be a big advertising bullet point "sensor tilt < x microns".




QHY guarantees sensors to have less then 20um of tilt. 

But... keep in mind that the sensor is the LEAST likely source of tilt in an image train. The adapters and all the accessories are far more likely to contribute than the camera sensor. I once measured a ZWO tilt plate and found that the variability of thickness was 100um!  The QHY spacers included with my Qhy 600 all had between 50 and 80um or tilt. 

When mitigating tilt, you will most likely need to do it with the entire image train assembled, and adjust to fix the error no matter the source, be it an adapter, accessory or camera sensor.

😂😂 yea right I have 2 of there cameras 268m and 268c, and both had well over 30 microns of tilt, and QHY did not care a bit and did it was well within spec..
the SVbony 533 I bought had almost 1mm of tilt coming from the sensor in the camera, that went straight back as my tilt adjuster would not move far enough to adjust it out
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erikgu 2.41
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I take the critics for beeing to quick with updates, I will try to get a beta test team but also test better myself. I assume there will be a new release ready in the end of the week, published next week. The release addresses calibration satbility and laser detection. The last due to more than one type of instrument cameras that acts differently. Please remember that we have beein on marked 4 months, most "systems" need som time to get bug free. 

Using the instrument is very easy and also very stable when you get used to it, you should  handle it like you do with your………, firm yet gentle. I am Norwegian so sorry for not knowing the right words. I calibrated 22 instruments for sending 2-3 rounds on each at the same camera, not more that 5 microns in difference most less than 2. Adjustments were done if a  difference on more than 3  from the middle. 

I hope and think that we in the near future will come wiith some news ….. maybe greate newssmile.
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Thomas_Rider_Astro 0.00
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Erik Guneriussen:
I take the critics for beeing to quick with updates, I will try to get a beta test team but also test better myself. I assume there will be a new release ready in the end of the week, published next week. The release addresses calibration satbility and laser detection. The last due to more than one type of instrument cameras that acts differently. Please remember that we have beein on marked 4 months, most "systems" need som time to get bug free. 

Using the instrument is very easy and also very stable when you get used to it, you should  handle it like you do with your........., firm yet gentle. I am Norwegian so sorry for not knowing the right words. I calibrated 22 instruments for sending 2-3 rounds on each at the same camera, not more that 5 microns in difference most less than 2. Adjustments were done if a  difference on more than 3  from the middle. 

I hope and think that we in the near future will come wiith some news ..... maybe greate news.

I think you guys have a made a fantastic tool and the software when it works, is great. I hope you understand that my view and review is positive of all your work and customer service. I have no doubts you will continue to improve everything but for now, the way it is, I have a sensor now with no tilt and I am pleased with my purchase
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Ricksastro 1.51
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I just wanted to give a shout-out to Erik for the product and support.    I've had some issues, but we worked through them, even had a Teams meeting.   I don't mind being a sort of Beta tester for a new product made by hobbyists for hobbyists.    I guarantee they're not making big bucks compared to the work they're putting in.
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StewartWilliam 5.21
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Yes, I have worked close with the team and can honestly say that they are excellent, very hands on with sorting out issues, and super quick at responding to messages, I hope to collaborate more with them in the future.
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Krizan 5.94
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Erik Guneriussen:
Hi, this is Erik from AstroPrecision, one of the developers behind the TiltAdjuster instrument.

May my post her is on the edge of what is allowed, if so I assume that it will be deleted.

Tilt is often discussed in relation to the sensor, and while sensor tilt is a factor, the rest of the imaging setup can also introduce tilt. Our goal is to include as much of the optical train as possible,  meaning all components behind the telescope should be included in the calibration process.

With the calibration and adjustment methods used in TiltAdjuster, we believe that reducing additional tilt—such as in the focuser—will be fast and precise. 

Not all achive the same but one of our customer reported this : 
A very successful 1st use of your product – I had my camera dialed in
to a few microns within 20 minutes of opening the box …


As comments above mention, we have had/has  some issues which I think is normal for new products. We strive to improve the software, though we may have pushed out recent updates a bit too quickly. To ensure more stable releases moving forward, we will be establishing a beta testing group. Additionally, there have been some installation issues, which we aim to resolve in the next release.

Erik

*** Hi Eric. Glad to see your responing to the discusion.  I received your Astro Percision tilter about two weeks ago.  I have been dealing with sensor tilt for years. Even though Starligh Xpress adjust tilt in their cameras using a laser tilter device, they still have considerable tilt.  As CMOS chips increased in size and pixels got smaller, the tilt issue became more of a problem.  I have spent many nights with a small hex wrench adjusting tilt using CCDInspector and ASTAP.  I never use the N.I.N.A.  meathod.

Years ago I built a tilter jig similar to the one mentione above.  It helped alot and I rebuilt/improved it three times.  The problem I have was the laser spot is too large and the sensor window reflection interferes  But it got me close.

Last week I used your electronic computer monitored tilter.  A total jump to the computer age.  Not only is the adition of a camera to sence the laser a big improvement, but the addition of soltware brings the process to another level.  With it I discovered that, what I thought was good tilt adjustment with my manual star field computer, still larger than the focus zone. 

My ZWO ASI2600C with the ZWO 54mm tilter worked very easily with the Astro Precision tilter.   My QHY268M with 2" filter wheel and BAAder tilter was more challenging  due to the imbalanced weight of the filter wheel.  I wanted to incorperate the wheel because it will aways be a part of the chain.  I had to us a Blumeoon camer counter weight to off set the imbalance.  The process went smoothly.

However, I ran into issues with and Starlight Xpress Trius SX-694 CCD.  The camera has a small profile and your tilter overlaps the tilt adjustment screws. So, the Camera had to be elevated.   As the orignal poster explained, this caused wobbling in the tilter rotation.  I incorporated a manual CCA and that took care of most of the wobbling.   The largest issue was the lasaer reflection off of the sensor cover window.  That reflection was brighter than the one off the sensor.  The software kelp centering on the widow relection.  I could not it to switch to the sensor lasre reflection.  there were two plus signs in the colimation frame.  It was very confusing to know which belonged to the sensor.  I resorted to putting the camera back on my hand made tilt adjuster and getiing the sensor tilt corrected as best I could.  I then returned the camera back to your electronic tilter.  It then choose the correct reflection of the sensor and I was able to proceed.  This whole process took hours.

The soft fuzzy side of velcro works fairly well as a berring.  I have used that application also.  But it allows too much wobble with the camera's 2" insert.  The original poster talked about that issue.  I think a manual CAA attached to the Astro Precision tilter is needed.  Also a treaded connection would be superior with M42, M48 & M54 treade adapters.  That is essentially  what I did with the M42 tresded SX-694.  I will send you photos of the unit I put together.  These CAA manual rotaters are reasonably priced. One can get them trough Ali Express or Agena Astro.

Is there a way to program the softwar to always choose the relection angled farterest away from the laser.  The sensor reflection dot should alway result angled farter  from the laser.  Cameras can and do vary in the cover window distance from the chip and its reflectivity.  They were minor in the ZWO and QHY, but vert bright in the Starlight Xpress.  

Another question I have is the  variation of the final Arc/Sec figure of the final adjusted difference of Focal Zone.  At one point it was at 4.?? and after  decreasing the Red circle considerabely it jumped up to 10.??.  Is it measuring the diameter of the red circle or the ratio between the three collimation points?  I can see that as the Red circle gets smaller, the ratio difference of the collimation points increase, even though they are lower in nomination. 

I have not downloaded the latest update. I have yet to use the Astro Precision tilter on my Starlight Xpress Trius SX-46.  it is a large camera with a  m72 threaded opening and 4 sets of adjustment screws. 

Thankyou for responding to this post.

Lynn K.
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erikgu 2.41
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Hi Lynn, 

I'll do my best to answer your questions. The feedback we receive from users is invaluable in helping us improve and quickly address any issues.

Wobbling and unstable setups can be a challenge. We have developed a prototype holder that I personally use with my setup, which consists of a ZWO 1600, a ZWO 8-position filter wheel, a Gerd Naumann tilt adjuster, and a few additional components. The holder provides stability and also makes it easier to access and adjust screws on the opposite side of the instrument. I expect it to be available on our website in about two weeks.

We initially considered integrating a rotator, but cost and quality concerns—especially with more affordable options—led us to decide against it, as it could introduce tilt.

Reflections are, of course, a challenge. We are actively working on improving laser blob detection, especially in cases where multiple strong reflections appear.

So far, we have focused on using only the strongest reflection. While it's technically possible to select others, I believe they tend to be less stable and could be difficult to track since the instrument rotates during measurement.

Finally, regarding the "jump" effect—yes, this can happen when you're very close to zero. At that point, it becomes almost impossible to measure the difference between the three sample points. The instrument has a resolution of 6 microns, but this should not be confused with the microns used in focus calculations. Achieving both stability and accuracy at near-zero tilt can be an extremely difficult challenge. I hope this explanation makes sense—it’s the best I can provide at the moment.
Erik
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erikgu 2.41
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An addition to my last post concerning blob detection and "other" reflections. Based on more that 40 years as a developer I have learned that the most commen cases should be solved an work good enough before focusing on the "rest". Our defintion of commen has at least until now been the strongest reflection. When we feel that that is stable we can and will go to the next. We are not finished with this instrument and have plans for others so hopefully we will continue to contribute to make things easier.
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