Is my guiding chasing seeing? [Deep Sky] Acquisition techniques · AstroÅmazer · ... · 13 · 374 · 6

AstroÅmazer 0.00
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Hi Folks,

My latest stack has weirdly dumbbell shaped small stars with nice round larger stars.  Attached is a crop of near-center frame around the Garnet Star. Most of the smaller stars have 2 distinct centers. 

My Setup:
Main:
WO Redcat71 with helical focuser (348mm, f/4.9)
Nikon Z5 (6016 x 4016 pixels @ 5.94um)
Guide:
WO Uniguide 32mm (120mm, f/3.75)
ASI120mm Mini (1280 x 960 pixels @ 3.76um)
Mount:
Sky Watcher Star Adventurer GTi

I am pretty close to the weight limit but have the rig well balanced. Polar alignment was < 1" on RA and Dec and < 2" overall. Subframes were 300s at ISO 1600 with Askar C2 filter. Guiding errors are 0.5"-0.8" before meridian and 0.7"-1.5" after, worst the hour after meridian. Target was ~70-75 deg altitude at meridian. I did notice Dec corrections in both directions but they were far apart. Haven't figured out how to get the guiding logs from ASIAir Mini yet (is it even possible?).

So what might be causing these weird stars shapes for smaller stars? Here are my guesses in decreasing order of how likely I think they are:

1. My guiding settings are chasing the average seeing conditions causing the mount to oscillate. I started the night with 70% RA aggressiveness and 90% Dec, with a 0.2px trigger. But after the meridian flip, the dithering settling time was > 10s-15s and corrections were few and far apart. So changed the aggressiveness to 75% then 80% on RA, 95% then 100% on Dec and the guiding trigger to 0.1px. Guiding seemed to get better at first then got worse.

2. Tilt in the OTA? All the small stars are trailing in the same direction so not sure if this is the case. New to telescopes, used lots of camera lenses, so looking for input from more experienced folks.

3. Collimation problems? Its a Petzval design but the nice round Garnet Star albeit over-exposed makes me thing otherwise.

4. Something else?

NearCenter.png

Thanks in advance,
GD

Clear Skies!
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andreatax 9.89
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Poor focus, possibly.
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AstroÅmazer 0.00
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Possible. Used a Bahtinov mask to focus and the center spike was well centered. But did not refocus all night.

ASIAir 'Detect' function said my average star size was roughly 2x pixel scale all night.
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andreatax 9.89
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Without a look at the PHD2 plots is hard to say anything for sure but I'm 99% confident you weren't chasing the seeing, your sampling is far too low for that to happen.
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Gondola 8.11
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Actually, to my eye, all your stars are elongated. Just being out of focus won't do that. All the stars would be bloated but still round. I think the most likely cause would be differential flexure. This is caused by tiny amounts of flexure between the guide scope and the imaging scope. Over time, they start moving relative to each other. Guiding data will look fine the stars in your image will be out of round or in really bad cases, trailed. The best way to check for this would be to do a test image with much shorter subs, just a few seconds. If the stars look good then you've found your problem. You might also try this in a few different orientations just to be sure. The fix is to make sure everything is solidly fixed. A lot of amateur setups are fairly flimsy are are subject to an ever-changing orientation so take a good hard look at your setup to see where you can make things more solid. You might also look at shooting shorter subs in general. The longer you go the more things have time to mess up your image. You might think about shooting 60 or 30 sec. subs as a matter of course. If you're shooting RAW and your camera has read noise that's not too high, you should be fine. I used to do this all the time with my Lumix G5 with good results.
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andreatax 9.89
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Poor focus in the guider, not the main scope.
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Silaenoz 0.90
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Hi
An off-axis guider will surely reveal if the problem comes from your guiding gear or if a deeper investigation is necessary. If you are able to borrow one, dont hesitate.
A dumb question but just in case : did you try to rotate the guiding camera and/or the guiding scope during your tests, to see if the shape of the elongation changes ? Is it well aligned with your main scope ? 
Those are very basic experiments, but sometimes we tend to dive into complexity without considering the obvious !
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Joo_Astro 3.80
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Hi,

I don't think you're chasing seeing, your pixel scale is quite big at 3.5"/px.
Also, I don't think flexure would be noticeable at that focal length and sampling.

I had similar troubles guiding with a SA GTI, where a high percentage of my images had trailing in them. I analyzed settings, guide graphs (you can download them from the ASIAIR via your network), looked at the mount, improved balancing and so on…in the end I was so annoyed I just got rid of the GTI and got the heavier EQ6-R Pro, and everything worked like a charm again without to much of a hustle.

My guess: The setup is too heavy for the GTI. The max payload is 5kg. For photography probably way less. My setup was just as heavy as yours (probably around 4kg), and I think the mount just couldn't handle it. It would correct in one direction, and because the setup was so heavy, it would "overshoot". Also, if the mount is too light for the setup or the tripod is not sturdy, wind may be a factor.

Johannes

Edit: I just noticed that the problem in the image looks way worse than you would expect when looking at a guide error of 1.5" at a pixel scale of 3.5".
Edited ...
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AstroÅmazer 0.00
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@Johannes Möslein I am afraid you might be right. I am around 4.2-4.3kgs. Even well balanced, the mount can't keep up. Will try shorter subs. I am shooting from my front yard with very little wind due to building and trees all around.

@Gondola I have the guide scope bolted on with 1/4x20 from under the cat handle as well as using the 2 thumb screws. It doesn't seem to move wrt the main OTA when not on the mount. The whole mount has some wiggle from the backlash. Will re-tighten everything before next night.

@andrea tasselli will refocus the guide scope and try next night. Also, will longer exposures on guide scope help? Am guiding every 1s and exposures are 1s. 

@Silaenoz I didn't change the guide camera orientation at all through the night. I think an OAG will put me beyond 4.5kgs on a 5kg limited mount.

Can I rule out tilt/collimation?

Thanks for the helpful feedback. Next clear night looks like Monday night. Will report back.
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Gondola 8.11
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You'd know if it was collimation just by looking at an out of focus star image. as for tilt, it would have to be really extream so I don't think so. I still think diff-flex is the most likely. Remember that anything on each optical train can do it, even just a little play in a focuser. As you know, the pointing accuracy that needs to be maintained between the guide scope and imaging scope is very tight.
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andreatax 9.89
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AstroÅmazer:
Also, will longer exposures on guide scope help? Am guiding every 1s and exposures are 1s.


*Not really. As long you have enough guide stars and use multi-star guiding you are all set. And it isn't really collimation in a refractor. If short, 5s exposures, give you round stars you are fine. And to avoid guiding issue shoot the NCP with tracking off.
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AstroÅmazer 0.00
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I went back and re-stacked the subs in 2 sets, 28 x 5mins before the meridian flip and 36 x 5mins after. And I am surprised at what I am getting. Pre-meridian when the guiding was better, I see bloated but rounder stars. Here is the same crop as before:
PreMeridian.png
After the meridian flip, when the guiding was bad, I got slight comet tails but still not as bad as the final stack:
PostMeridian.png
But when I stack them together, DSS gives me the small stars with 2 centers. What happened? 

Right now my checklist for Monday night is:
1. Shorter subs
2. Refocus guide scope
3. Tighten everything down

Anything else I should be trying?

Thanks,
GD
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Joo_Astro 3.80
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AstroÅmazer:
I went back and re-stacked the subs in 2 sets, 28 x 5mins before the meridian flip and 36 x 5mins after. And I am surprised at what I am getting. Pre-meridian when the guiding was better, I see bloated but rounder stars. Here is the same crop as before:
PreMeridian.png
After the meridian flip, when the guiding was bad, I got slight comet tails but still not as bad as the final stack:
PostMeridian.png
But when I stack them together, DSS gives me the small stars with 2 centers. What happened?

Good Job on finding that out. Maybe the stack somehow gets misaligned in DSS?
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AstroÅmazer 0.00
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Found this discussion saying DSS can fail to stack sometimes due to bilinear/bisquared/bicubic interpolation.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/393042-stacking-images-from-pre-and-post-meridian-flip-produces-poor-stars/

Tried Lanczos-4 in Siril. Here is a linear stretched stack (Siril's script was too aggressive with the black point):

result.png

I still like the stars from the 2 DSS stacks. Will likely stack pre/post meridian flip in DSS and combine them in Siril with Lanczos-4 interpolation in the future.

Anyway this data does not look usable. 1 night's effort wasted but learnt something new!

Will still use shorter subs, refocus and retighten. And get to 30-40 hours of integration... 

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

Clear skies!
GD
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