Cooled camera temperature variances, how much is acceptable ? [Deep Sky] Processing techniques · Eric Gagne · ... · 34 · 1506 · 7

Stefan2499 1.81
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andrea tasselli:
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So the dark signal from the IMX533 is 1/8 that of the IMX294, roughly in line with the ZWO website numbers. However, thermal noise is well over a decibel higher. Top IMX533, bottom IMX294.


These results would have to be converted from gain into electrons, only then it is possible to compare the two cameras. I‘m gonna be honest, I don‘t know how to convert it. 
Next, software often scales up to 16bit which also changes results…so yeah, its a bit more complicated than running the stacks through a PI-Script.
Lastly, lightpollution noise is far higher than the noise caused by dark current. Dark current therefore doesn’t really matter unless shooting from dark sites like Chile B1 .
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andreatax 9.89
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Stefan Pfleger:
andrea tasselli:
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So the dark signal from the IMX533 is 1/8 that of the IMX294, roughly in line with the ZWO website numbers. However, thermal noise is well over a decibel higher. Top IMX533, bottom IMX294.


These results would have to be converted from gain into electrons, only then it is possible to compare the two cameras. I‘m gonna be honest, I don‘t know how to convert it. 
Next, software often scales up to 16bit which also changes results…so yeah, its a bit more complicated than running the stacks through a PI-Script.
Lastly, lightpollution noise is far higher than the noise caused by dark current. Dark current therefore doesn’t really matter unless shooting from dark sites like Chile B1 .

In one case gain is unity and in the other (IMX294) is 0.85. Besides, I'm only comparing pixels with pixels, which is all the matters to most of us. In both cases the the output is 14-bit padded to 16-bit, as customary, although I don't see what that matters. As for the last point I very much don't thinks so and I'm shooting from a B6/7 site.
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WhooptieDo 10.40
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So if I'm reading all this right, you are saying the 294 is a superior sensor to the 533?
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andreatax 9.89
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Brian Puhl:
So if I'm reading all this right, you are saying the 294 is a superior sensor to the 533?

You are reading it wrong. My statement is that the thermal noise of the IMX533 is higher than that of the IMX294... Which might or not be also a superior sensor.
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rveregin 8.47
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I have the ASI533 though I have not yet had time to analyze it properly yet. I have done that for my ASI2600MC and came out with numbers that agree with ZWO. Unfortunately, I do not have PI, and I don't know what the results shown in these tables above mean. However, I added the 294 to my excel summary of my 533, not from my data, but from ZWO's data.

Clearly the 533 is a better camera in terms of lower read noise, and much lower dark current and dark noise.  My first point is that even with the higher dark current of the 294 the dark current is less than 2 adu (16 bit), only 0.3 adu for the 533. Note that dark noise is the square root of dark current (all in adu), this is the physics, it is known as Poisson noise. For 180 second subs dark noise is insignificant with respect to read noise for the 533, but is contributing to noise for the 294.

It wasn't clear if the comparison shown in the tables above was for master darks with bias subtracted. A bias of 10 (called the offset or sometimes brightness) in the settings will give a baseline adu of 100 in the darks, unless it is subtracted. So if the bias is still there it is dominating the signal in the dark. If it weren't for the bias, the average value of the dark level would be 0, plus less than 2 adu of dark current, so an extremely long signal.

This does cause confusion as the noise in the dark frame is not the same as the dark noise, which is unfortunate naming.

The dark current is challenging to measure, should be done strictly in a totally dark area to avoid any stray light, and use many very long exposures to get a good value. Biases need to be taken as well and subtracted, again a lot of good biases are needed. Finally, I did not even mention pattern noise, which is actually a fixed signal from defects in the sensor, such as hot and cold pixels, etc. This can add to the signal level, and is delt with by subtracting biases or darks from each other. My experience with my other ZWO camera is you can trust there numbers.

Hope this helps
Rick


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lunohodov 1.81
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andrea tasselli:
Andrea, you are correct that dark current is not the same as dark current noise. Yet, the latter is inferred from the former and given identical exposure length and temperature, a lower dark current will yield a lower dark current noise, no?

Thank you!

Yanko


Hello Yanko,

I'm afraid isn't quite this straightforward. On paper (i.e., the ZWO website) the M533MC has an order of magnitude less dark current than the ASI294MC yet the thermal current noise of the latter, as measured by me, is more than an order of magnitude smaller than the former. And that isn't just a matter of numbers, the IMX533 sensor is quite clearly noisier than the IMC294 at just a quick glance (if you ignore the amp-glow).

Andrea

That's interesting, Andrea. This is the opposite of what my (and general?) perception of the camera seems to be. You got me interested, and I'll read more on the topic.

Thank you for the clarification!

Yanko
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lunohodov 1.81
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Rick Veregin:
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My first point is that even with the higher dark current of the 294 the dark current is less than 2 adu (16 bit), only 0.3 adu for the 533. Note that dark noise is the square root of dark current (all in adu), this is the physics, it is known as Poisson noise. For 180 second subs dark noise is insignificant with respect to read noise for the 533, but is contributing to noise for the 294.

Rick, this is also what I came to after doing the calculations. Given the dark current specification is correct, and dark noise is inferred from the square root of the dark current, what other factors are there?

What a great hobby!

Yanko
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rveregin 8.47
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lunohodov:
Rick Veregin:
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My first point is that even with the higher dark current of the 294 the dark current is less than 2 adu (16 bit), only 0.3 adu for the 533. Note that dark noise is the square root of dark current (all in adu), this is the physics, it is known as Poisson noise. For 180 second subs dark noise is insignificant with respect to read noise for the 533, but is contributing to noise for the 294.

Rick, this is also what I came to after doing the calculations. Given the dark current specification is correct, and dark noise is inferred from the square root of the dark current, what other factors are there?

What a great hobby!

Yanko

Yanko,  I'm not positive I understand your question. Do you mean what other factors are there for noise in the dark frame? Aside from dark noise, there is read noise I mentioned, and there is DSNU (dark signal non-uniformity), the pattern noise--such as hot and cold pixels, amp glow, and other non-uniformities that are not random, but fixed in their location on the sensor.  By doing more dark frames you reduce the average read and dark noise by sqrt(#frames). The DSNU noise is not random, so the average value over many frames is the same as over one frame. Ultimately, with enough dark frames, DSNU becomes the dominant noise, as the random noises become insignificant. One must dither ones lights so that the DSNU noise in the darks moves to random positions, this randomization allows DSNU to be reduced in the final image. 

Let me know if this answers your question. There are many other sources of noise in the flats and the lights as well, so lots of noises to worry about, though basically they all follow the same trends as in the darks.

Yes, it is a fun hobby, and as a retired imaging scientist it gives me lots of opportunity to increase and use my knowledge to help my own images and to help others as well.
CS
Rick
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lunohodov 1.81
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Rick, your answer is spot on. Thank you for your time.

Yanko
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rveregin 8.47
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lunohodov:
Rick, your answer is spot on. Thank you for your time.

Yanko

👍👍
CS
Rick
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