Someone talk me down off the ledge Anything goes · Timothy Martin · ... · 48 · 1849 · 1

Well, Hubble, VLT did the same thing 30 years ago, they blew our minds. They were and still are an inspiration to all of us, without them we wouldn't be having this discussion.



The VRO will do the same, it will be a source of inspiration for this hobby.



And by the way, have you guys noticed how similar VRO's M8 and M20 look to what we can find right here on astrobin?

Hi Tim,

Great question.  I agree with Marcel above.  I see it as an evolution in the linage of Hubble, the Anglo-Australian Telescope, CFHT, VLT, VISTA et al.  All were superb at producing wide field images that not only captured the public's imagination but also inspired those in our hobby.  I am particularly familiar with the Anglo-Australian Telescope (I was its Director for a number of years), whose wide field photography by David Malin was a huge influence on our craft.

I use my images to communicate my love of science, astronomy and the environment (through dark skies) to my friends and the general public where I live.  To be able to show images that I have taken with relatively inexpensive gear (total cost less than a car) that I have put together in my backyard under dark skies bring an immediacy and sense of place that the Vera Rubin can't achieve.  [It also helped in our successful application for International Dark Sky Status].  

To further emphasise that what we do in within the reach of everyone, I encourage all my visitors to get out their smartphones and image the sky.  To see the joy on the faces of people when they take their first iPhone image of the night sky cannot be beaten.  Do they care if the HST, Vera Rubin could take a better image?  I think not.  

I am certain that those behind the Vera Rubin telescope, including Vera herself, would not only want this telescope to inspire the general public in the majesty of the heavens, but also encourage more people to get out and take their own images.  Only through this increased "ownership" of this wonderful natural resource, can we hope to protect it for generations to come.

Kudos to the Vera Rubin Observatory, to my AB friends and to anyone who images with the sky from the "humblest" smartphone camera to the most sophisticated professional observatory.  Long may we all reign.

Pickleball, I leave to others.  

Brian

Timothy Martin:
Did the Vera Rubin Observatory just put us all out of business? 10 meter focal length at F1.2 with a 3200 megapixel camera and a 3.5-degree field of view--and it will shoot the entire southern hemisphere every few days.  It pretty much kills every scope I have in just about every way. I'm not sure why we should even do this any more. Please tell me why I'm overreacting 

https://rubinobservatory.org/

Well, it's in the southern hemisphere; that takes half of your worries away.

Sean Jackson:
Vera uses broadband filters not narrowband.

Which is understandable at F/1.2

I wonder if those images could help the Pixinsight MGC mapping effort…

Give me 1.9 billion to buy a scope and 70 million per year to operate it and I will do just as well.

One could (and many here have), argue that one should quit because some folks on AB have 30 inch scopes in Chile. 

Or that one does not need to travel to Easter Island (I have) because you can see Moai on television.

It is about the experience and the community, IMHO….

I’m delighted to see LSST come online.  I’ve been watching it come together for many years starting with the primary mirror being cast at the Large Mirror Laboratory at the University of Arizona.  I watched the mirror being figured in the large optics shop in the basement of the Wyant College of Optical Sciences using the computer controlled stressed lap figuring machine developed by Roger Angel.  I have some pictures around here somewhere that I can post when I get more time.  They used the PhaseCam interferometers that we developed at 4D Technology to test all of the optics and I installed at least a couple of those interferometers in the Large Optics Lab.  After the mirror was finished, I was approached by the university to store it (along with the GMT mirrors) in a large airplane hangar that I own in Tucson.  I desperately wanted to rent them space BUT those mirrors with their steel containers weighed 40 tons each and my floor wasn’t designed for that kind of weight.  I was also worried that I would lose space for airplane parking!  They ended up being stored in an even larger hangar next door to mine and I saw them there for a years.  Again, I’ll have to dig out some pictures.

Fast forward to installing my scopes at Obstech down in Chile and, sure enough, there was the Vera Ruben Observatory site visible on the next ridge over!  On my last trip, I took my binoculars just so that I could get a better look at it.  Along the way, I ran into an astronomer who was at Obstech working on the ATLAS scope and we got to talking.  His “real job” was as a trouble shooter on the LSST as they worked toward commissioning.  Some of the problems that he talked about sounded absurdly difficult to fix but it looks like they pulled it off.

LSST will survey the entire sky visible from the site every couple of days using single 30 second exposures, which will go a bit deeper than 25th magnitude (I don’t recall the exact value).  Software will scan each image to look for changes signaling new objects or phenomenon.  As the news reported, they will indeed find a lot of new asteroids and such but as I understand it, there are two key missions.  First, they are looking for NEOs that could potentially impact the Earth.  Second, they are looking for nova events.  Novas and Supernovas can provide standard candles for determining galactic distances more accurately.

LSST has the capability to make it really easy to find new objects to image—for anyone who cares to dig through the data.  Rubin isn’t likely to be used to produce the kind of pretty pictures that we here on AB have fun producing; although it could certainly do that.  It does make it increasingly unlikely that amateurs in the S. Hemisphere will be the first to image any new phenomenon unless they are extraordinarily lucky and very quick to report it.  Each LSST image covers a large expanse of sky with seeing limited image quality (~0.7”) and that’s tough to compete with, but it’s important to understand that it’s not doing what HST or JWST does in terms of optical resolution.  The LSST image quality is about what I can get out of my 0.6 m scope on a good night but they do it with a single 30 second exposure covering thousands of times the FOV that my scope can muster.

John

And by the way, have you guys noticed how similar VRO's M8 and M20 look to what we can find right here on astrobin?

That image is what prompted  this topic. 

Brian Boyle:
I use my images to communicate my love of science, astronomy and the environment (through dark skies) to my friends and the general public where I live.

That really is the coolest aspect of this for me, too. Wise words, Brian. 

Jerry Gerber:
Your images are beautiful and technically excellent Tim, VRO, Hubble and JWT doesn't change that at all. Enjoy the dark sky site you have access to and the excellent equipment you're able to use. 

Life is short!

Jerry, I can always count on you for sound life perspective. Thanks, my friend.

Continuum - Laurent Lucas:
Well, it's in the southern hemisphere; that takes half of your worries away.

That's true--but it still may impact any thoughts I might have regarding placing scopes in Chile. But as others have pointed out, VRO is really about looking for asteroids and supernovas, so perhaps we won't continually get squashed by it.

Sean Jackson:
Vera uses broadband filters not narrowband.

Perhaps another saving grace.

Arun H:
Should I take up pickleball because you have several expensive scopes in a favorable location 😀?

Absolutely! (j/k). You have nothing to worry about from me--your work is exemplary.

John Hayes:
It does make it increasingly unlikely that amateurs in the S. Hemisphere will be the first to image any new phenomenon unless they are extraordinarily lucky and very quick to report it.

As always, you provide an insane level of cogent information to the conversation. It must have been so cool to be so close to all this. I guess what can still contribute to our relevance is the fact that we can do narrowband, and as you point out, the fact that VRO isn't really there to produce pretty pictures.

AstroStew:
Overreacting is putting it extremely mildly, it the most ridiculous comment I have ever read…

I'm glad I could top your list. But I think you might be giving me too much credit. I can think of some others that might outclass me:

"And so, is there anything that the National Forest Service or BLM can do to change the course of the moon's orbit or the Earth's orbit around the sun? Obviously, that would have profound effects on our climate." ~ Louie Gomert

"My fear is that [Guam] will become so overly populated that it will tip over and capsize." ~ Hank Johnson

Jason Witten, a week after suffering a lacerated spleen against the Oakland Raiders: "When you have an organ like that, you have to take care of it."

“You guys pair up in groups of three, then line up in a circle.” ~ Bill Peterson

"Yes they can control the weather. Anyone who says they don’t, or makes fun of this, is lying to you. By the way, the people know it and hate all of you who try to cover it up." ~ MTG

“Not to mince words, Mr. Epstein, but we don’t like your boys’ sound. Groups are out; four-piece groups with guitars particularly are finished.” ~ Dick Rowe, Decca Records, early 1962 referring to the Beatles

"640K ought to be enough [memory] for anybody." ~ Bill Gates

I left Pickleball off of my list and don't think you are crazy.

I agree with many of the posters above, especially regarding this hobby as a personal venture for exploration.  At least that is the case for me.  I generally want to use my own gear, but lately, because of a move, I have been forced to try some different optics from commercial sites.  Mostly looking at an optic that I find intreguing for reasons that are specific to my own exploration. 

Aside from that, I think all the posters above also missed one of the most important issues with the Rubin, and that is all the data will be available to the general public, essentially nearly immediately!  This may be a huge free resource for those astrophotographers for who these fields and resolutions may fit their needs.  The other thing is that, unlike the Hubble, these fields will be repeatedly imaged thereby yielding data sets that offer stacking, noise reduction, etc. that just does not happen with single images from the other space-based scopes.  So whether we like it or not, Rubin will revolutionize astrophotography, at least some part of it.  The question then is what does one do with this data, that may not fit our desired resolution, exposures, filters, etc.  I for one am interested in generating optical maps of distant fields of galaxies, without the intereference of local (i.e. Milky Way) stars and other local interferences.  Not just maps of dots that the current science provides to illustrate the galactic web, but those dots being actual real images of those galaxies.  That is just one thing that could come of the Rubin data.  Never mind the lock on new discoveries such as NEO, new solar system planets, all asteroids of significant size, all SNE, comets, picking up extrasolar objects transiting our solar system in time to explore, unlike that last couple only discovered much too late to react, dark matter evidence, etc., etc.  So much data to review, it will force science to create new data analysing paradyms just to not waste the data.  The demands cause by the huge data push will not just revolutionize what is generated by Rubin, but also likely to spill over into many areas of our information society.  I am not sure I am ready for that at my age…  But my kids will have to be!

Best,
Alan

Alan Brunelle:
I left Pickleball off of my list and don't think you are crazy.

I agree with many of the posters above, especially regarding this hobby as a personal venture for exploration.  At least that is the case for me.  I generally want to use my own gear, but lately, because of a move, I have been forced to try some different optics from commercial sites.  Mostly looking at an optic that I find intreguing for reasons that are specific to my own exploration. 

Aside from that, I think all the posters above also missed one of the most important issues with the Rubin, and that is all the data will be available to the general public, essentially nearly immediately!  This may be a huge free resource for those astrophotographers for who these fields and resolutions may fit their needs.  The other thing is that, unlike the Hubble, these fields will be repeatedly imaged thereby yielding data sets that offer stacking, noise reduction, etc. that just does not happen with single images from the other space-based scopes.  So whether we like it or not, Rubin will revolutionize astrophotography, at least some part of it.  The question then is what does one do with this data, that may not fit our desired resolution, exposures, filters, etc.  I for one am interested in generating optical maps of distant fields of galaxies, without the intereference of local (i.e. Milky Way) stars and other local interferences.  Not just maps of dots that the current science provides to illustrate the galactic web, but those dots being actual real images of those galaxies.  That is just one thing that could come of the Rubin data.  Never mind the lock on new discoveries such as NEO, new solar system planets, all asteroids of significant size, all SNE, comets, picking up extrasolar objects transiting our solar system in time to explore, unlike that last couple only discovered much too late to react, dark matter evidence, etc., etc.  So much data to review, it will force science to create new data analysing paradyms just to not waste the data.  The demands cause by the huge data push will not just revolutionize what is generated by Rubin, but also likely to spill over into many areas of our information society.  I am not sure I am ready for that at my age...  But my kids will have to be!

Best,
Alan

Could you share the information about the data being publicly released almost immediately? Best I've found is 2 years down the road, if financing is successful.

Continuum - Laurent Lucas:

Alan Brunelle:
I left Pickleball off of my list and don't think you are crazy.

I agree with many of the posters above, especially regarding this hobby as a personal venture for exploration.  At least that is the case for me.  I generally want to use my own gear, but lately, because of a move, I have been forced to try some different optics from commercial sites.  Mostly looking at an optic that I find intreguing for reasons that are specific to my own exploration. 

Aside from that, I think all the posters above also missed one of the most important issues with the Rubin, and that is all the data will be available to the general public, essentially nearly immediately!  This may be a huge free resource for those astrophotographers for who these fields and resolutions may fit their needs.  The other thing is that, unlike the Hubble, these fields will be repeatedly imaged thereby yielding data sets that offer stacking, noise reduction, etc. that just does not happen with single images from the other space-based scopes.  So whether we like it or not, Rubin will revolutionize astrophotography, at least some part of it.  The question then is what does one do with this data, that may not fit our desired resolution, exposures, filters, etc.  I for one am interested in generating optical maps of distant fields of galaxies, without the intereference of local (i.e. Milky Way) stars and other local interferences.  Not just maps of dots that the current science provides to illustrate the galactic web, but those dots being actual real images of those galaxies.  That is just one thing that could come of the Rubin data.  Never mind the lock on new discoveries such as NEO, new solar system planets, all asteroids of significant size, all SNE, comets, picking up extrasolar objects transiting our solar system in time to explore, unlike that last couple only discovered much too late to react, dark matter evidence, etc., etc.  So much data to review, it will force science to create new data analysing paradyms just to not waste the data.  The demands cause by the huge data push will not just revolutionize what is generated by Rubin, but also likely to spill over into many areas of our information society.  I am not sure I am ready for that at my age...  But my kids will have to be!

Best,
Alan

Could you share the information about the data being publicly released almost immediately? Best I've found is 2 years down the road, if financing is successful.

A week ago, or so, I looked up on the web site for this info and you are correct, the data will be held for two years, open to those who register as PI's or Associates.  Thereafter open.  However, I also read somewhere that it may be possible to register as a citizen scientist (assume from affiliated country to the project), and for imaging purposes, may be welcome to work with data prior to that.  I went to the site for registering as an official user and it was not yet open for use.  I did not save the link, so you will have to search for that yourself.  Given the excessive data generated and the dearth of actual researchers, I suspect the pressure for uses of this data outside of direct science missions will allow for a consortium of artists to open the data to our use.  That is the understanding that I had when researching this.  But I did not save those sites.