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Question see above.
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At the risk of getting banned. Dude, Calm the f*ck down , you were given answers to your questions by multiple people. Your image didnt become IOTD . deal with it, move on . |
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Thanks for your answer, Steveri. But I did not ask you.
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Hi, topics can be closed when the users are in violation of the Terms of Service. The User Conduct section states: You may not use the Site or the Service: You implied that the volunteers who make up the IOTD/TP staff might be fools, and I found that gratuitously offensive. Furthermore, I reserve the right to close topics when I have a bad feeling of where the topic is going and I see that there's nothing more of value being added. In your topic that was closed today, I felt that you had made your point, you had declared you were leaving, and I thought the topic had a high potential of being inflammatory. I thought it was wise to close and this is my right as the owner of this website. AstroBin is, actually, EXTREMELY lax in allowing all sorts of discussions without a moderator intervening. I can probably count on the finger or two hands the number of times I had to close topics in over 10 years. So as long as you all are civil and respectful, I'll let you discuss freely. I hope this answers the "why"! Thanks, Salvatore |
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Thanks for your answer, Steveri. But I did not ask you. He clearly said, for further discussion contact support... figure it out |
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Ok, then I call the IOTD submitters as "incompetent". Is this ok? =HwtZe=jCAhz ChMk0b=ryNqvbApparently you don't mind giving away money. |
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Ok, then I call the IOTD submitters as "incompetent". Is this ok? You have made your point and I appreciate the feedback. I take each piece of feedback very seriously, and I've been on a mission to CONTINUOUSLY improve this website in every aspect, including the IOTD/TP process. Many people can testify to this fact. The process of the staff selection is something that I plan to improve even further in the future. I understand that your concern is that the IOTD/TP tends to award "pretty pictures" (I'm not placing a derogatory meaning with those quotation marks), and you disagree with that. You are not wrong in the fact that highly polished pictures are more favored by the IOTD/TP: it is a process to select interesting and beautiful images. Your image, as others have noted, is somewhat interesting for sure! However it does not adhere to the IOTD/TP requirements of polish. At this time, the IOTD/TP is not, in fact, a scientific publication, and therefore images that have scientific value (not sure if yours has some) do not automatically qualify for special treatment. The members of the IOTD/TP Staff voted correctly according to the spirit of the IOTD/TP this time: your image presents technical flaws that, while perfectly understandable in the context of such a dim object, do not lend themselves for selection. If this means that that IOTD/TP is not for you, so be it, that's understandable. Of course, AstroBin is a lot more than the IOTD/TP, but that's another topic. It is your right to have your own opinion on the competence of others. Hope this clarifies! Salvatore |
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Hi Salvatore, you are the owner of the site, but you STRONGLY depend on your customers. As long as they pay it might be ok for you, but the time will come, when average astrophotographers will leave this site and then you will depend on a few well equipped members producing good quality pretty pictures. Unacceptable is closing a thread just because you can. This behavior of yours destroys credibility in a free and open discussion. The word "fool" is definitely not a reason to close a thread! My suggestion: You should force the IOTD participants to publish their raw data, i.e. stacked images of all used channels! This is not difficult and will build more trust to the system. BR, Klaus |
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Hi I'm online on AB around 15 hours a day and have followed this discursion from the beginning No offenses, I'm against any degrading expression, there's no reason or justification to talk about the IOTD in this way it's a hobby , lets enjoy it and don't stop looking the stars CS Brian |
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Hi Brian, it is a hobby, like Soccer or Tennis. But rules for sports can be changed. Why not change them now? Transparency is needed for a fair competition! CS, Klaus |
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You should force the IOTD participants to publish their raw data, i.e. stacked images of all used channels! I appreciate the suggestion. I have implemented countless of features based on suggestions from users! This one, however, is in fact extremely difficult. There are 200-300 images submitted for IOTD/TP consideration every day. Do you think volunteers will have time to inspect raw files? Or do you think I can hire them? How much do you think your subscription would have to cost, so I could hire several people to look at raw data from 9 to 5? And is this guaranteed to improve the process? Please remember that astrophotography is a small niche. AstroBin is not a company with hundreds of employees in a big building. It's literally only me and the IOTD/TP volunteers, some volunteers who manage translations, and some who have helped with the equipment database. And some others doing random favors of the years (sorry I forgot to mention!) Hope this clarifies! Salvatore |
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Hi Salvatore, nobody of the submitters has to inspect any raw data. This will be done by the critical community which can and will do double checking the IOTD winner's result. I am sure, that the IOTD raw data of Bray Falls will be inspected by hundreds of colleagues having cloudy skies for weeks. This will be for free, believe me! The option for raw data upload already exists, so please continue implementing the transparency for the users! CS, Klaus |
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Thanks for clarifying, I didn't understand the first time. That's a valid suggestion, for sure. I'll put this in my idea folder and when it's time for the next round of IOTD/TP improvements (scheduled end of this year / beginning of next, depending if I'm on schedule with the other features I have on the road map) I will discuss this with the community. Thanks again! Salvatore |
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Salvatore Iovene:You should force the IOTD participants to publish their raw data, i.e. stacked images of all used channels! I have an idea whenever and only when a person applies for IOTD approval, he'll be required to put a raw master light in a little box or window somewhere on the page of the image, which when pressed, showcases a Master or Master(s) (maybe put a minimum requirement of 1 master), and this can be accessed by the public and viewed at high magnification, but cannot be downloaded or copied AND, if an image is approved by judges and becomes IOTD, as long as it's viewed on the front page, and only then, if the majority of the public sees it as an ugly image, they have the option to Vote-kick that image out of IOTD forever, (there could be a minimum vote number based on the amount of views the image received, like, maybe 70 percent of the view number) these things would be nice, but I'm prolly just dreaming  |
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Thanks for the ideas, Oscar! Oscar: There is no such thing as "can be viewed but cannot be downloaded" on the Internet. If you're viewing it, your browser already downloaded it. Copying can me made slightly inconvenient with a lot of effort, but this can ALWAYS be circumvented by a determined party. Oscar: So the selected IOTD/TP staff members are not competent enough to warrant voting for dismissal, but the entire community at large is? Please consider that this sort of democratization is already happening in the IOTD/TP process, as there typically around 70-80 members and images are voted for. And can you imagine getting a IOTD and then the community votes against it? Would you feel like you were treated fairly? This time I'm thinking both these suggestions are not aligned with my vision. However, I absolutely do welcome suggestions, so if you have more feel free to let me know. Please be aware tho, that over the past 10+ years, I've heard almost all of them Thanks! Salvatore |
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Salvatore Iovene: makes sense I'll back up Klaus' suggestion thank you! CS |
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I'm curious what a reason would be for posting channel masters for the community to review as a requirement to be eligible for IOTD?
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To add my unsolicited perspective, I have found Salvatore over the years to be extraordinarily fair-minded and open to suggestions that benefit the entire community, and which are practical to implement. And I’ve not yet had an IOTD. CS, Bob |
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Some thoughts on this: Image processing skills are right up there with dark skies imho. The one image presented in the locked thread demonstrates an opportunity for learning more. I doubt making raw masters is going to appease those that already think the process is not fair. Here's an idea.. how about creating a people's choice catagory. A rough idea on how it could work: Have it as an additional option when uploading an image, just like we currently do for iotd. The whole thing can be automated.. put up a poll of every image that was submitted with people's choice enabled that paid members can vote on, and the image that gets the most votes can be the people's choice the next day. Create a new emblem for it. Maybe do a poll for what color to use before making it. |
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I would be happy to upload masters if people were interested but I’m not at all sure what benefit it would be. If by masters we mean raw stacked subs prior to processing, most of mine would appear black until they are stretched. If we then decide that they should have a rudimentary stretch, what kind of stretch. Surely, much of the final detail is developed in those early stretches. If I may offer one suggestion. Perhaps an appeals process might appease offended parties. I appreciate that this has the potential to add to the already significant workload of the volunteers but this could be minimised by allowing paying members to vote on whether they feel an image is worthy of resubmission. Perhaps a minimum number of votes within a two week period. Of course if the image remains unchanged the outcome is likely to be the same but the member appealing might get a better feel for how the image is being received in general. |
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James: +1 on this idea |
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Question see above. You stated that you directed this question to Salvatore directly yet somehow post in a discussion forum. Why, if your sole and venerable reason was to discuss with Salvatore? Do you think paying for a service entitles you to make a fuss and openly insult people? Try that in any other public but privately owned area where you are not hiding behind a keyboard. You will be shown the way out faster than you think. By using (and paying) for this service you agree to its terms and the owner has every right to keep this platform free of any violations to those terms. Inciting change by trashing what is there in a rude manner is probalby the worst strategy. You cleary act from a space of anger and did not reflect on your feelings and emotions. That said, I had my fair share of belly flop images in terms of submitter votes, the most recent being this one.  It went down with flying colors and a whopping 0 votes, if I remember correctly. Was I bummed? Sure. Did I learn something from this? Having taken a few steps back, I would say it is still a worthy picture, especially given the limitations but it could have benefitted from more noise reduction and of course is pushed to the absolute extremes, which might not make for the prettiest, cleanest and technically excellent picture which is the focus of this TP/IOTD process. Did that change how I think about the image? Not in the slightest, I still love it and will probably have it printed. And that is all that counts. Do astrophotography first and foremost for yourself and not for others. User their feedback to improve your technique and use their images for inspiration. But don't do it for fame. |
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Hi Dominik, thanks for your feedback. Of course I was angry about the rejection of my image, otherwise I would not have started the discussion. On the other hand I learned that I should completely stay away from IOTD with such results. I think I will continue publishing here, but my expectations getting one of the awards with my images is much lower now. I understand, that not everyone has the same taste regarding astrophotography. Regarding the publication of raw data, I think the above created ideas make sense. CS, Klaus |
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Publishing your own data as requirements to a beauty context isn't gonna fly, like ever and ever.
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I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to “prove” by requiring raw data uploads.
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