In the early days of Astrobin, the Astrobin index may have been a value that could be used to assess and judge the skills of astrophotographers.
However, as it is primarily based on the likes received, it quickly became an incentive for like collectors to collect as many likes as possible in order to climb up the index table.
This meant that the index had largely lost its original purpose.
Ever since it became possible to submit pictures as a team and each team member is awarded the same number of points, regardless of what was contributed to the picture, the index in its current form has lost all meaning.
People with only one contribution of a unique image have a higher index value than others who have already posted many good self-generated images over the years.
I would therefore suggest either abolishing the Astrobin Index completely or at least revising it so that it better reflects the photographer's abilities.
CS
Hartmuth
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I want to remove it so badly, but there is going to be such a huge backlash, I will never see the end of it, unfortunately.
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Once you understand the index formula, you begin to understand why so many folks publish revisions all the time. I'd love to see it stick around if it accurately reflected the skills of the photographer. To a certain extent, most of those on the first page of the list deserve to be there. There are quite a few though that are there for different reasons. I cannot forsee a way to create a metric to measure 'skill' on this website unfortunately. I think the index as it sits is about as good as Salvatore could do.
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Hartmuth Kintzel:
I would therefore suggest either abolishing the Astrobin Index completely or at least revising it so that it better reflects the photographer's abilities. Perhaps revising it to be based on TPNs, TPs, and IOTDs--going forward, not retrospectively--would produce more of the result you're looking for. It would also produce a pile of headaches for Salvatore. There's no answer here that isn't going to do that. I think most everyone knows that it has little to do with quality and therefore attach little importance to it. I certainly don't care about it at all.
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I totally ignore it. I post images because I love to do so. Regardless of how many likes and views. To me, it's a meaningless number. If it's too much to deprogram, just leave it in.
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Salvatore Iovene:
I want to remove it so badly, but there is going to be such a huge backlash, I will never see the end of it, unfortunately. @Salvatore- @Hartmuth Kintzel brings up what, to me, is the most significant issue, maybe only "fatal flaw", with the AB Index as a ranking strategy - the undue/heavily weighted advancement of some of the individuals who are submitting as a group. This flaw has caused the Index of newer contributors to projects to surpass, or at least rival, people who I know to have been the "team leaders" on the same projects. (I always post solo, so this is a third-party observation.) The effects of this are magnified by several well-intentioned aspects of the Index that may not have considered this scenario. I do not have the specific solution(s) for this, but either: ...allowing group efforts to only benefit the Index of one individual while acknowledging team members, (this would probably usually not be a good approach for teams with equal input, but maybe as a user-selectable option?)
OR
...dividing Index scoring amongst team members equally, but subject to each individual's current averages and such, (or something like this).Otherwise I think that the Index is valuable and useful, although acceptably not perfect. Certainly people can farm likes and such, but this is part of the social media world we live in these days. I think that is OK. I think the scoring strategy/math may be able to be done a different way, but I think that it is fine the way you've designed it. (Except for the team images "glitch" mentioned by Hartmuth and I.) I'll stick around either way, but I'd be bummed to lose the Index that I have worked so hard to have! (As, I suspect, would many others.) Thanks for everything Salvatore! -Anthony
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Anthony Quintile:
...dividing Index scoring amongst team members equally, but subject to each individual's current averages and such, (or something like this). I like this, at first impact. Seems fair! I have to see what the feasibility is, as I'm not sure at this late hour  Anthony Quintile:
I'll stick around either way, but I'd be bummed to lose the Index that I have worked so hard to have! (As, I suspect, would many others.) One thing I've learned running this website is to NEVER TAKE AWAY anything from user. Offer a better alternative, leave the option to stay with the old, slowly make the old less relevant. It's tough with the index tho. Worse case scenario, it gets frozen, stops updating, gets placed in some page that's not so easy to find. That's effort that I cannot spare at the moment, tho. I have a lot of very important things to do, improvements and new features! Unfortunately there's only one of me and AstroBin could easily keep 10-20 employees busy.
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HI
greeting to all
for me it makes no different
if it is kept or removed
for a great reason , when a hobby become a competition it is no longer a hobby , is a obsession
and sooner or later you will get hurt
for me the most important thing is to look at the sky even if it is like mine ( SQM16.84)
Clear Skies for all
Brian
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Salvatore, my suspicion is most on AB don't care, they understand the system, and ignore it. The fact of the matter is, all the responses here say they don't use it, which while a small survey, may be indicative.
My only suggestion, and maybe this is already an option?, can we disable seeing those numbers? They are right there in our face by our name? it is somewhat annoying at this point, being on AB for a while now, to have numbers staring at me that never change. Those that want them can keep them.
Is that easy to do?
All the best and CS to all!
Rick
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There are those who know how it works and definitely play the system to pump up their index number. To be frank, I am not sure what purpose the index serves. I feel like the contribution index is more useful.
That all being said, I think if someone wants to ascertain the quality of advice someone is giving or how good of an astrophotographer they are, a quick perusal of their published images gives a thousand times more weight than a number by their name.
I would be really curious to hear from someone who would close their Astrobin account because the index system was taken away. If I woke up tomorrow and just saw "SemiPro" in the orange box with no numbers, my reaction would be something like "oh" and then I would go about my day.
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I didn't even know that the index existed until this post. I suspect that if you aren't on one of the first pages (I'm not, obviously), then it's not a big deal for you.
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Salvatore Iovene:
Anthony Quintile:
...dividing Index scoring amongst team members equally, but subject to each individual's current averages and such, (or something like this).
I like this, at first impact. Seems fair! I have to see what the feasibility is, as I'm not sure at this late hour In the academic world, a research publication (a paper) can have multiple authors, and usually they don't share equal credits. In some areas, the first author gets most of the credit, and then second, third, and so on. The first author is usually (not always, this can be very complicated) the one who did most of the writing or most of the studies, and therefore they deserves most of the credit. In some area, in addition to the first author, there can be a "corresponding" author. The corresponding author is treated as being responsible for the entire project and its outcome (good or bad), and therefore gets most of the credit. At the same time, some journals allow authors to indicate certain authors to have equal contributions so their contributions will not be judged simply based on the order in the author list. If Salvatore wants to introduce a system to divide the index points for group projects, maybe the above system can be considered. For example, I naively imagine Astrobin can offer the team two options: 1. equally divide the index among all members 2. a non-equal division. In such a case, the team has to come up with an order. The first one gets 60% of the index point, the second gets 60% of the remaining (40%) point, the third one again gets 60% of the remaining (16%) point, and so on, until the last one, who gets all the remaining point. If the major argument about the index system is on team projects, the above might be a way to improve it.
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The academuc world has “struggled” to deal with multi-author papers in as far as ‘credit’ goes for decades.
At least it has something like the H-index to fall back on. It can’t be manipulated by the individual, and it rewards those who publish lots of (good) papers.
The AB-index is particularly vulnerable to small numbers, which makes it vulnerable to the collaboration “problem” highlight by the OP as well as to a bit of gaming.
If you wanted a quich fix, then why not use the H-index? Sure it’s inflationary (but so is the AB index really) and it is still based on likes (but this a social site after all).
Or if the shake up would attract to much negative attention for Salvatore, how about publishing both? Or neither. Actually the latter would be my preference, although folks have argued that you cant take away features either.
CS Brian
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In my view, the index in its current form is one of the few remaining weak points from the early days of Astrobin.
It creates a ranking of the members, which was manipulable from the beginning and has always been manipulated due to the sole use of likes as a basis for calculation.
If the ranking list is to be retained, it should at least be based on more reliable criteria than just likes.
The much more sophisticated IOTD system, which says considerably more about the abilities of the users, is a good option.
For example, you could add 5 points for every IOTD received, 3 points for a topic and 1 point for a nomination to the like points received.
This would not take anything away from anyone. But the ranking would be more in line with real skills.
If the index does not drop for most users, the complaints should also be kept to a minimum.
In addition, points gained through team work should not be added to each team member, but should be divided up.
This would mean that some users who previously only received points through team work would be downgraded.
But it would only affect a relatively small number of users, while many feel that the current effect is very unfair.
It could also be considered whether the index for a user should only be displayed after a defined number of images have been posted.
This would prevent users with very few but much liked pictures from being high up in the rankings.
CS Hartmuth
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Hartmuth Kintzel:
In my view, the index in its current form is one of the few remaining weak points from the early days of Astrobin.
It creates a ranking of the members, which was manipulable from the beginning and has always been manipulated due to the sole use of likes as a basis for calculation.
If the ranking list is to be retained, it should at least be based on more reliable criteria than just likes.
The much more sophisticated IOTD system, which says considerably more about the abilities of the users, is a good option.
For example, you could add 5 points for every IOTD received, 3 points for a topic and 1 point for a nomination to the like points received.
This would not take anything away from anyone. But the ranking would be more in line with real skills.
If the index does not drop for most users, the complaints should also be kept to a minimum.
In addition, points gained through team work should not be added to each team member, but should be divided up.
This would mean that some users who previously only received points through team work would be downgraded.
But it would only affect a relatively small number of users, while many feel that the current effect is very unfair.
It could also be considered whether the index for a user should only be displayed after a defined number of images have been posted.
This would prevent users with very few but much liked pictures from being high up in the rankings.
CS Hartmuth I don’t think iotd is perfect either. the system doesn’t really reward amateur astronomy. What gets rewarded is professional equipment at remote places. I only recently got talked down for being under impressed by what an asa600 at one of the best places on earth can archive. Great pictures sure but i as an amateur can’t archive similar (i can close) and if i want to look at the best i simply look at the work done with space telescopes. I am aware that there are also a lot of pictures taken with real amateur equipment and i enjoy those pictures but i feel like i need to look at 20inch + scopes work like every second day. You don’t reward skill, you reward having a big wallet.
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I use AB every day and enjoy seeiong the work of others but like Dave B comments, never knew the index even existed.
Can sombody point me to an explanation of what the index is and how it works.
Graham
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Rick Veregin:
Salvatore, my suspicion is most on AB don't care, they understand the system, and ignore it. The fact of the matter is, all the responses here say they don't use it, which while a small survey, may be indicative.
My only suggestion, and maybe this is already an option?, can we disable seeing those numbers? They are right there in our face by our name? it is somewhat annoying at this point, being on AB for a while now, to have numbers staring at me that never change. Those that want them can keep them.
Is that easy to do?
All the best and CS to all!
Rick I quite like @Rick Veregin's suggestion if you could enable/disable the display of the index individually. It might not be (very) complex to implement (though only @Salvatore Iovene can judge that). For those who attach particular importance to the index, nothing would change (“nothing is taken away”), and those who do not place any value on it will forget it, true to the motto “out of sight, out of mind”. The current prominent presentation of the index is almost impossible to overlook. This could initially be a quick solution/change that is already satisfactory for many (according to the Pareto principle, i.e. the 80/20 rule). Of course, this does not affect a possible different distribution/weighting of points that make up the index (in the future). I'm just afraid that such considerations and decisions would take much more time to prepare (which Salvatore probably doesn't have the time for at the moment, as he has already indicated). CS, Thilo
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Hartmuth Kintzel:
In my view, the index in its current form is one of the few remaining weak points from the early days of Astrobin.
It creates a ranking of the members, which was manipulable from the beginning I agree that it was probably a bad idea. From a business point of view, tho, I don't know. Surely there are people who don't join because they don't want to be part of something like the Index or the IOTD. Perhaps there are some who join BECAUSE of them? I do need to find out somehow. Hartmuth Kintzel:
The much more sophisticated IOTD system, which says considerably more about the abilities of the users, is a good option.
For example, you could add 5 points for every IOTD received, 3 points for a topic and 1 point for a nomination to the like points received. I want to "devest" (is it a word? the opposite of invest in my mind) from the AstroBin Index, somehow, and this sounds like putting more resources and weight into it. Changing it as an affirmation that it something good that belongs to astrobin, which I'm not sure about. Rick Veregin:
My only suggestion, and maybe this is already an option?, can we disable seeing those numbers? They are right there in our face by our name? it is somewhat annoying at this point, being on AB for a while now, to have numbers staring at me that never change. Those that want them can keep them.
Is that easy to do? Yes, it's relatively easy to do. You can already do that but it's bundled with the IOTD/TP ("Exclude from competitions" in the settings). Wei-Hao Wang:
If Salvatore wants to introduce a system to divide the index points for group projects, maybe the above system can be considered. For example, I naively imagine Astrobin can offer the team two options:
1. equally divide the index among all members
2. a non-equal division. In such a case, the team has to come up with an order. The first one gets 60% of the index point, the second gets 60% of the remaining (40%) point, the third one again gets 60% of the remaining (16%) point, and so on, until the last one, who gets all the remaining point. That's a good idea but it puts more focus on the Index, making everyone even more aware of it, while I would like to remove focus on it. I have already been thinking about this for years, how to phase it out. E.g. removing it for new users, allowing users to opt out, and only making it available to existing users who want to continue seeing it. But with so many things to do, and with this being quite risky in terms of getting angry emails, I haven't spent time to do this yet.
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Graham Roberts:
Can sombody point me to an explanation of what the index is and how it works. https://welcome.astrobin.com/features/image-index |
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Salvatore Iovene:
Anthony Quintile:
...dividing Index scoring amongst team members equally, but subject to each individual's current averages and such, (or something like this).
I like this, at first impact. Seems fair! I have to see what the feasibility is, as I'm not sure at this late hour Hi all, I think this could be a real improvement. JF
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Salvatore Iovene:
Rick Veregin:
My only suggestion, and maybe this is already an option?, can we disable seeing those numbers? They are right there in our face by our name? it is somewhat annoying at this point, being on AB for a while now, to have numbers staring at me that never change. Those that want them can keep them.
Is that easy to do?
Yes, it's relatively easy to do. You can already do that but it's bundled with the IOTD/TP ("Exclude from competitions" in the settings). Hi Salvatore, the option to disable should be separate, the IOTD process is a totally different idea and a better metric than the Index. Rick
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Hi Salvatore,
I would abolish it. I tend to consider the skill level of the photographer when I "like" or take an individual view of an image from the front page. Even if an image isn't the "best", if it shows progress, or effort I will "Thanks for sharing - like", I also express likes for harder to image subjects, or interesting descriptions and I think others do too.
Maybe I am too old for this competition stuff - seriously? this is a hobby. , encouragement and recognition are much more fun - so this ranking is unimportant to me. So, maybe I give out likes too often, but personal competition is not what it is for and there is enough of it in the IOTD - and then it is about the image, not the photographer.
Cheers,
Dave
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