Maybe there is an FAQ on this - if there is, please point me to it. Recently I have seen some images that list the "Data Source" and "Remote Data Source" but the two do not seem to match so either I do not understand exactly what the meaning of the various options is or the person posting those images does not or perhaps the appropriate options are just not there. I will list the options and my understanding of their meaning and please correct me if I am wrong. I want to be sure that I get this right (and help others so they do). Data source:Self-AcquiredBackyard: Any data taken by the poster from the property where you live. It can be a temporary or permanent setup. One of my sites clearly fits this. Traveler: Any data taken by the poster from a place you traveled to get to, whether it is one mile away from home or five thousand. This would by definition be ONLY portable equipment. Own Remote Observatory: Clearly taken by the poster but this one is a bit confusing. "Own" might imply that you own the site or built the site, but it could also mean that you own the equipment but rent the space at the site. Is it one of those or both? Maybe we need two options here? Downloaded: Pretty straightforward. All three subcategories (Amateur hosting, Public Amateur Data, Professional Science data) come from data NOT gathered by the poster. Other: Basically what it says but by definition does not tell the viewer anything much. Remote data source:Since this has a drop-down list of most of the remote sites if one of those options applies it is pretty clear. What is not clear is what you would put in the "Data Source" section for some of those choices. What I mean is that "Backyard", "Traveler", and "Own Remote" would not make sense if the data came from a scope that you are just renting time on (operate but do not own). It is not really "own remote" but it is also not just "downloaded data". Maybe a new category under "Self-Acquired"? Something like "Non-Owned Rental Scope"? If I am right the system might be improved by adding two options under self-acquired. One would be for time on rented scopes and the other would clarify whether the site is your own private remote site or your own equipment at a remote site where you rent space. Once again, please correct me if I have any of this wrong. Thanks!  |
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Excellent questions! I look forward to the answers.
At home I have a wide field traveler that usually shoots from my driveway or backyard. I also take it to club nights 25 miles away, as well as on vacation
then there’s the DSO reflector too big to roll anywhere but the driveway.
and the third is at Starfront, in Texas…a rented space for my own gear that I control from home.
I’ve not been confident in how to choose labels for the either!
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AFAIK, the 3rd option clearly indicates that you own the equipment (e.g., the rig) which collects the data. Whether the ground it is sitting on (or mounted upon) is your own property or rented is immaterial. You own and operate the rig remotely is all that is required.
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andrea tasselli:
Whether the ground it is sitting on (or mounted upon) is your own property or rented is immaterial. You own and operate the rig remotely is all that is required. People that have spent hundreds of hours planning and buying land and getting permits and inspections and thousands of dollars (or other currency) and hours building an observatory would disagree and very strongly indeed! Having done that three times I am one of those. It may not be important to the image itself (but could be since it could affect the operation of the site) but is very important to the imager and might be of interest to the viewer. Things like this are projects worth noting (the one below is one I helped build but no longer own). More information is always helpful. The other point (about rental scopes) is, of course, a separate issue.  |
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Bill McLaughlin:
andrea tasselli:
Whether the ground it is sitting on (or mounted upon) is your own property or rented is immaterial. You own and operate the rig remotely is all that is required.
People that have spent hundreds of hours planning and buying land and getting permits and inspections and thousands of dollars (or other currency) building an observatory would disagree and very strongly indeed! Having done that three times I am one of those. It may not be important to the image itself but is very important to the imager and might be of interest to the viewer. Things like this are projects worth noting (one I helped build but no longer own).
I couldn't agree more, 6 years of site survey, 15 years in the making. From a piece of dirt in the middle of nowhere, with no infrastructure to a remotely controlled observatory is certainly worth noting even though there are very few here who have worked for this accomplishment... No Water... dig a well No Sewer.. Composting Toilet No Power... Solar panels there is a phone line and DSL for control Need data...6 hour drive round trip to retrieve if you'd like to get an idea of the work involved in building your own remote observatory, here are notes for the 10' dome shown below: 10ftDome and Telescope Project.pdfCDK17 Remote Control System.pdfhttps://www.astrobin.com/xzpojv/BE/?nc=&nce=Observatory in the South East Sierra Nevada Mountains.  |
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Dave E, That could almost be in the same area judging from the terrain. OTOH, the terrain looks like that in most of the west!  |
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Dave Erickson:
People that have spent hundreds of hours planning and buying land and getting permits and inspections and thousands of dollars (or other currency) building an observatory would disagree and very strongly indeed! Having done that three times I am one of those. I agree with you, Bill. And I think the distinction would be a very useful one to some. But it's a case of be careful what you wish for. When you make it widely known that you built your own observatory, be prepared for arseholes (like me) who are thinking about doing it to start badgering you for details.  |
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Bill McLaughlin:
People that have spent hundreds of hours planning and buying land and getting permits and inspections and thousands of dollars (or other currency) and hours building an observatory would disagree and very strongly indeed! Having done that three times I am one of those. It may not be important to the image itself (but could be since it could affect the operation of the site) but is very important to the imager and might be of interest to the viewer. Things like this are projects worth noting (the one below is one I helped build but no longer own). More information is always helpful. The other point (about rental scopes) is, of course, a separate issue. It doesn't matter as far as the source of the data is concerned. Maybe you guys should set-up a group and share your plans to build observatories in the SW.
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andrea tasselli:
It doesn't matter as far as the source of the data is concerned. Maybe you guys should set-up a group and share your plans to build observatories in the SW. If that is true why make any distinction at all? Back yard, traveler, remote...
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Hi Bill,
in short, and this is my interpretation, the key concept is this:
Own = you own the equipment at the very least, and possibly the site. The two most typical situation are:
1. You built your own observatory and own it or co-own it
2. You rent space at a commercial facility, but you shipped your equipment there and operate it remotely
Downloaded = you own nothing, you're buying ready-made data (think TelescopeLive), or you're renting time on a setup (think iTelescope).
This has nothing to do with acquisition.
I'm sure we could figure out a better way to describe / categorize this, and possibly add the ability to have multiple designations for images, but if you propose any changes, please keep in mind that the data needs to be backwards compatible somehow, as we can't ask people to change the 1 million images on AstroBin.
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Salvatore Iovene:
I'm sure we could figure out a better way to describe / categorize this, and possibly add the ability to have multiple designations for images, but if you propose any changes, please keep in mind that the data needs to be backwards compatible somehow, as we can't ask people to change the 1 million images on AstroBin. As far as owned and it's meaning and whether there should be a separate category for owned remote observatories vs. owned equipment at (non-owned) remote observatories, there seem to be mixed opinions so is probably not a big deal. If a category was added it would have to be "owned remote equipment". The old entries that say "owned remote observatory" could be left as is even though they might refer to only equipment. The user could change that if they wanted to but it would not be required as it is a sorta minor distinction. That way it would only be relevant going forward. The more significant one is personally operated but non-owned scopes (which are pretty much all rented) , for which there is no category but which is a significant piece of information as far as the image goes. Perhaps a new category for that but once again only for images going forward with changing older ones being at user discretion.
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Hi,
It is very difficult IMO to categorize all cases.
For example I have my own backyard scope, this case is very clear.
In other cases I use a friend's backyard scope at his place. Am I traveling or still backyard ? When I do this I put Backyard in the description. Maybe it is not good. But I feel it like this.
Let's go further : I often have access to a professional telescope. I don't rent it or pay for it, and I don't earn any money either, meaning I am not a professional myself. I make the settings and acquisitions as an amateur. Sometimes at the observatory, sometimes remotly. I process everything myself. I have never been able to categorize that 🤯
Now just imagine a collaboration with all these cases.
IMO we should keep it simple.
Happy new year.
JF
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I am sure when another commercial remote site comes on line it will be added to the menu, so why not add a catigory for those who own and operate privite remote observatoys. Like "DYI remote Observatory" in the dropdown menu or something akin..
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I think that as far as image information goes, the are three types (in decreasing order of importance):
1) Information that is really critical in order to know more about the image and learn from it.
2) Information that is needed to be able evaluate the image quality and imager/processor skill accurately.
2) Information that is simply nice to have.
Examples of the first category would be where it was taken from and the equipment and software used. These are largely already covered on AB.
Examples of the second category would be who set up the system, who operated it, who processed the data and what manipulations were used. This is mostly about evaluation of skill and effort involved and relates directly to the quality of the final image. We all see a final image but seldom know much about all of the steps from site construction all the way thru posting the image that went into making that image a reality and who really did those critical tasks. The bottom line is that the more of that the poster of the image did themselves, the more credit is due. That is sometimes about judging the image but is often more about a viewer asking themselves "could I do something like this?" and "how would I go about that?".
The third category would include things like site technical details, equipment configuration, acquisition software and much more. Not at all critical but nice to know.
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Dave Erickson:
I am sure when another commercial remote site comes on line it will be added to the menu, so why not add a catigory for those who own and operate privite remote observatoys. Like "DYI remote Observatory" in the dropdown menu or something akin.. That is a great idea. There is already a "non-commercial independent facility" option available at the bottom of the list but I seldom see the option used (maybe because it is at the bottom?)
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Bill McLaughlin:
Dave Erickson:
I am sure when another commercial remote site comes on line it will be added to the menu, so why not add a catigory for those who own and operate privite remote observatoys. Like "DYI remote Observatory" in the dropdown menu or something akin..
That is a great idea. There is already a "non-commercial independent facility" option available at the bottom of the list but I seldom see the option used (maybe because it is at the bottom?) A back yard observatory fits this "non-commercial independent facility" catagory, I use none of the above way down the menu...
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Yes, "Non-commercial independent facility" is meant to be used if it's your own site.
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Salvatore Iovene:
Yes, "Non-commercial independent facility" is meant to be used if it's your own site. A back yard observatory fits this "non-commercial independent facility" catagory, I use none of the above way down the menu...
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Dave Erickson:
A back yard observatory fits this "non-commercial independent facility" catagory, I use none of the above way down the menu... Keep in mind that to be able to choose a remote data source, you need to have set the data source to be "Own remote observatory" or "Remote hosting facility", so it's already clear this is not a backyard image. Plus the "facility" word carries some weight in my opinion.
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Salvatore Iovene:
Dave Erickson:
A back yard observatory fits this "non-commercial independent facility" catagory, I use none of the above way down the menu...
Keep in mind that to be able to choose a remote data source, you need to have set the data source to be "Own remote observatory" or "Remote hosting facility", so it's already clear this is not a backyard image. Plus the "facility" word carries some weight in my opinion. isn't "Utah Desert Remote Observatories" a commercial facility under " Own remote observatory"? I am fine with using "none of the above" for my DYI observatory.. why when i click on "own remote observatory" in the description of my image do i get a list of "Commercial Remote observatories"? Can you link it to "My website" instead? seems less confusing and more in line with "Own remote observatory".
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Dave Erickson:
isn't "Utah Desert Remote Observatories" a commercial facility under " Own remote observatory"? Yes, because you could own your equipment and host it there, and then it would count as an "Own remote observatory". The distinction AstroBin makes is only between whether you own equipment ("Own remote observatory") or your download data / rent time ("Downloaded data"). Dave Erickson:
I am fine with using "none of the above" for my DYI observatory.. I'm fine if you're fine, but the expectation is that you use "Own remote observatory" as data source, and "Non-commercial independent facility" as remote data source. The expectation is important because if people who enter data are aligned with people who search data, then search results are more accurate. Dave Erickson:
why when i click on "own remote observatory" in the description of my image do i get a list of "Commercial Remote observatories"? Can you link it to "My website" instead? When you click there you get search results for all images tagged as having a data source = "Own remote observatory". You can link to your website external to AstroBin by using the "Link" field in the "Content" section of the image editor form!
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Salvatore Iovene:
Dave Erickson:
isn't "Utah Desert Remote Observatories" a commercial facility under " Own remote observatory"?
Yes, because you could own your equipment and host it there, and then it would count as an "Own remote observatory". The distinction AstroBin makes is only between whether you own equipment ("Own remote observatory") or your download data / rent time ("Downloaded data").
Dave Erickson:
I am fine with using "none of the above" for my DYI observatory..
I'm fine if you're fine, but the expectation is that you use "Own remote observatory" as data source, and "Non-commercial independent facility" as remote data source. The expectation is important because if people who enter data are aligned with people who search data, then search results are more accurate.
Dave Erickson:
why when i click on "own remote observatory" in the description of my image do i get a list of "Commercial Remote observatories"? Can you link it to "My website" instead?
When you click there you get search results for all images tagged as having a data source = "Own remote observatory". You can link to your website external to AstroBin by using the "Link" field in the "Content" section of the image editor form! All that said, I think those with actual facilities that house their equipment would appreciate a distinction from those who rent space but own their imaging equipment. There is a very significant difference between them. IMHO more than the difference between backyard and traveler. Having done both backyard and traveler for decades and now owning my non commercial indepent facility , for more than a decade, I know something about this... Please respect this request...
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Dave Erickson:
All that said, I think those with actual facilities that house their equipment would appreciate a distinction from those who rent space but own their imaging equipment. There is a very significant difference between them. IMHO more than the difference between backyard and traveler. Having done both backyard and traveler for decades and now owning my non commercial indepent facility , for more than a decade, I know something about this... Please respect this request... Rent space = "Own remote observatory" + some specific commercial facility as remote data source, e.g. Starfront, AstroCamp, etc Own the full thing = "Own remote observatory" + "Non-commercial independent facility" Or am I misinterpreting this request? Thanks!
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Dave Erickson:
When you click there you get search results for all images tagged as having a data source = "Own remote observatory". You can link to your website external to AstroBin by using the "Link" field in the "Content" section of the image editor form! What am I missing? Iu don't see an ability to link to my website  |
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Dave Erickson:
What am I missing? Iu don't see an ability to link to my website Oh my bad, it's in the first tab, Basic information. Sorry!
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