John Hayes:
Tony Gondola:
Ok, first I want to say that what we have now is pretty good, not perfect by any means but I would hate to be a judge. That said, if there were to be divisions I'd like to se something setup according to aperture. It does feel disheartening at times to see an image you like and find out it was taken with a 24" RC with over 100 hours of integration.. Pitting my little 6" against that seems pretty useless. You can integrate forever, process it perfectly and still be totally outclassed. I'm not complaining and I assume the judges take that into account but it does take the winds out of one's sails at times.
Ok then...which is more disheartening? To lose an award to an image from a 24" RC and 100 hours of exposure time or to spend 100 hours of exposure with a 24" RC and lose out to a guy with a 24 mm lens on a DSLR? They are two sides of the same coin. If you feel that disadvantaged, just opt out of the judging. On the other hand, if you want to participate, you have to get over the fact that a lot of the time, your images are going to get overlooked no matter what equipment you use. That's just the way it works.
John Point taken...
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
you're paying $30 a day for a pier
Dilemma alert ! If I give up coffee I could use the savings for a remote pier BUT then having the remote pier I'd need coffee again !! Drat !
You spend $30.00 a day on coffee?
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Tony Gondola:
You spend $30.00 a day on coffee? Not really; but a 5 to 10 dollar a day pier joke wouldn't have come off as well !
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Bill McLaughlin:
John Hayes:
I purchased and configured my own gear. I paid to ship it to Chile. I flew down there and set up both of my systems (over multiple trips). Virtually no one has touched my gear except me and I run it every clear night.
Agreed! I have a similar attitude with my remote site, although it is not in Chile, it is a two day drive from me. I still go down there myself at least once a year (next week, in fact) to do maintenance and upgrades. The site owner is excellent but I just want to do my own installation and setup and upgrades as much as possible which makes the image much more "mine".
Unlike most people who have a remote site due to light pollution at home, I also live at a pretty dark site but it is in the Pacific NW so winter weather is my issue at home. If I had to do all my imaging at home I would get less than 1/4 of the images I do at present.
For me it is not about where the images were taken or even what equipment was used but about how much effort has gone into the whole process from setup to processing and just who did that work. The more you do, the more credit you deserve as well as vice-versa. For that reason, if I have an issue with images, it would be with people that are just buying data or renting time on a huge scope since they have done zero as far as equipment is concerned. For me it is less about the site than it is about the total effort and dedication involved.. *Well, I wouldn't go down that route. I am renting time on remote sites because it makes sense as I'm not a Lannister and I have a day job and a family to feed and cloth. Yet I can't have anyone else question my commitment to astronomy over too many years to count.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Tony Gondola:
Let’s do a little provocation...
I propose IOTD is randomly selected from the images submitted each day.
Once a photographer has obtained the IOTD, he or she cannot have it again until all other photographers have obtained it.
The same goes for TP (but 4-5 are selected per day) and TPN (but 10-12 are selected per day).
As much as everyone is special, no one is special anymore…
Sort of like everyone gets a trophy...... Yessss, the big AB Lottery  |
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
The thing about threads like this that brings out friction among people who otherwise respect each other. For example, the exchange that John and I had, or Andrea's note above. I deeply respect the work that Andrea, Tim Martin, Bill Mc Laughlin, John Hayes etc., do and these discussions need to be separate from that reality.
Back about a year ago, I was as passionately in favor of changes to the IOTD as some of the posters here, realized that all this did was move me away from why I started doing this in the first place. You can see from various threads elsewhere that this is really causing a lot of division in a community that is supposed to be brought together by a common love of astronomy and photography. What is instead happening is people asking what they need to do to win an award, regardless that their work may already be excellent. The solution is to go back to the original thesis that the IOTD is not a contest, but quite obviously, almost nobody feels that this is true today.
What I do push back against is setting unrealistic expectations. For example, the notion that a guy with a 24" RC can be beaten with a DSLR or cheaper equipment. It is certainly true that guys with DSLRs win IOTDs. But it is generally for astrolandscapes - where the DSLR/commercial mirrorless camera has an advantage. It would be rare indeed for a DSLR today to win an IOTD in Deep Space category. The last person I know who produced IOTD caliber images who used DSLRs is Wei-Hao Wang. But even he today has moved to imaging from an observatory with dedicated equipment. The reason of course if that Deep Sky images uniquely benefit from dark skies, long integration times, good seeing, and aperture in a way that astro landscapes do not. So to those aspiring to win an IOTD for Deep space work - recognize the handicap you may have in access to these types of conditions over those that to. This isn't about having an inferiority complex, it is reality. A Toyota Corolla will not beat a Ferrari with any kind of consistency for equally skilled drivers.
And finally about categories - there exist categories in IOTD today - Deep Sky, Solar, Lunar, Planetary, Landscapes. These categories are not "official" in the sense of there is an IOTD for each category here. But the judges do recognize that images in one cannot be compared to those in another, and try to spread awards across categories. Which, of course, answers why the guy with the DSLR beats the guy with the 24" RC on occasion. I suspect there are similar considerations given to backyard versus remote, or NB vs LRGB so there is a variety of awarded images. Allowing non anonymity at the final stage allows this kind of balance, though of course, opening up questions of bias.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Timothy Martin:
I get the angst over pay to play. But while I get it, I'm not terribly sympathetic to it. As I said above, recognition is nice, but it's ethereal and extremely short-lived. You simply cannot derive satisfaction from this avocation by collecting digital badges from a subjective and capricious awards process. Yes, I do understand the feeling that renting space at a remote site and/or buying exotic equipment is somehow not quite "fair" but, like many things, there are a lot of variables to be considered. 1) Where do you live and how suitable for imaging is it? I would suggest that most people's jobs do not allow anything but urban and light polluted residences. 2) How much money do you have available for hobbies, how many hobbies do you have, and how important is each hobby to you? These factors impact how much you spend on equipment and (perhaps) hosting. 3) How long have you been doing the hobby? There is a big difference between $50,000 worth of equipment bought all at once and the same amount accumulated over several decades. I do stand by my feeling that the more of the total "equipment to acquisition to processing" does one's self, the more credit is due. That seems obvious. Having said that, it is also true that practicality may sometimes make it difficult or impossible to do some of those things one's self. For example, no one is going to fly to Chile to replace a filter but you might do so to install a new system. So although there have been nearly endless suggestions as to how the awards process should be changed (and I have suggested some myself), I am not sure that any of those suggestions (including mine) would be a significant improvement over the way it is currently done and any change that makes one set of people happy will make another set unhappy. As Timothy said, recognition is nice because it is always nice to have experts in any field recognize your efforts but it should be taken as a nice "attaboy/girl" and should not be the reason one does the hobby.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Oh well, again this topic! OK, here my very subjective and personal opinion - I am a user of Telescope.Live, of Insight.Observatory and also of I-Telescope. Besides those three sources, I own 4 telescopes and normally 3 of them are running in my garden - my garden is in a small village 20miles outside of Vienna/Austria close to the Vienna Woods forest area. Bortle - well, usually 4. The weather is very challanging - sometimes I cannot shoot for over 3-4weeks.
Do I complain - no. Why?
I have analysed out of my personal interest the IOTD´s of the past 5 or 6 years and found out that it is (with very few exceptions) not, absolutely not the "remote hosted" telescopes, which get the most points, it is always a combination of quality of image, of processing, of uniqueness and, and and…
I have seen IOTD´s which have shown very well known targets, taken from a backyard in the vicinity of a large city - but those images were perfectly processed, wonderfully framed and revealed details, which one can not find in almost all other images of the same target. Usually because those images had integration times of several dozen to hundreds of hours - so a really long-term project which got the honor of the IOTD.
If one gets such an appreciation for an image which was taken during just one or two nights, it must be something extraordinary and a wow-effect. Can happen, but is rare.
Yes, there are some targets, which are spectacular and can only be grabbed from e.g. Chile or Namibia or Australia - either they are far South (for a Northern-Astrophotographer) or they are very dim and cannot be recorded from Bortle 4, 5 or what ever. Are those the all-deciding targets to get an IOTD? No, it might be an advantage, but it is not the prerequisite.
In all my years with contributing on AB, I did not (yet) get an IOTD, that is OK. And why - because I have not yet been able to contribute an image, which was really outstanding and an absolute wow-effect. My images are (most of them ) pretty good, I got a lot of nominations and some TPs, but my weather here does not allow me to collect 100 or 200 hours of photons unless I stretch a project over several years. That´s what I am planning to do with some attractive targets - maybe one day, I get an IOTD, maybe not.
I enjoy what I do, it is a hobby, my financial restrictions do not allow me to travel to South Africa, to Chile or Australia - no way, not even to Spain. But I enjoy my hobby, with or without IOTD. The conclusion of this longish explanations - I do not need a special category at all. I enjoy looking at the IOTDs and get some ideas what to do next and what to do better…
Living is livelong learning and enjoying the moment!
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
A question I have, are all of the possible nominations and top picks handed out. Are there restrictions on the number of each (it would make sense to have them). I may never win an IOTD but as a less experience, less equipped hobbiest with a full time job and 3 kids 5 and under, nominations and top picks mean a lot too. As the quality at the top narrows, let's make sure we are not narrowing the road to even get some consideration and recognition. Sure, it's not a competition (did you fail psych 101?) But those smaller awards can be what inspires and motivates the next generation of greats.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Joe Linington:
A question I have, are all of the possible nominations and top picks handed out. Are there restrictions on the number of each (it would make sense to have them). While the Image of the Day is, by definition, limited to one per day, the earlier stages in the selection funnel (Top Pick Nomination first, and then Top Pick) are also subject to certain constraints that regulate the process. These are explained in full detail here: https://welcome.astrobin.com/iotdIn summary: - The number of staff members is limited
- Each staff member has a maximum number of votes they can cast per day
- Images remain in the voting queue for a fixed amount of time
- Images need a minimum number of votes to advance
By adjusting any of these four parameters, I can influence how many awards are given. A few important points to consider: - The IOTD staff has a wide range of preferences. Some members wish they had more votes because they sometimes see great images they can’t vote for due to their daily limit. Others struggle to meet the weekly minimum of 14 votes.
- Right now, the ratio is about 10 Top Picks for every IOTD, and 2 Top Pick Nominations for every Top Pick. I think the 10-to-1 ratio for Top Picks vs IOTDs is quite generous. The 2-to-1 ratio for TPN to TP might be worth increasing, but that brings us to the next point.
- In the past year, around 10,000 images received one of the three awards, out of roughly 40,000 submissions. That’s a 25% award rate, which I already consider quite high.
- We need to maintain a balance. When an image that deserves recognition doesn’t get it, someone is upset. When an image gets awarded and someone thinks it didn’t deserve it, that also creates frustration. Realistically, reactions follow a bell curve: no matter what, there will always be a few people who disagree. The goal is to minimize dissatisfaction, even though it can’t be completely avoided.
I hope this helps clarify things.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
That's for the clarification Salvatore. I appreciate it.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Wow!! Deja-vu all over again. Let's review why we're here…….or why I'm here. This hobby is not a competition against others. There is no win; there is no lose. When you get down to it, there are just too many variables to make comparisons in an ever changing, fluid, and dynamic atmospheric environment. For me, it is a hobby and a passion that poses unique challenges to grow and improve, not only as an astrophotographer, but as a person as well. I did not join Astrobin to "win" IOTDs, Top Picks, or Top Pick nominations. I joined to share my images, see what others are doing, and employ learned and shared techniques to improve the quality of my imaging. And also, perhaps, to contribute what I've learned to someone just starting out. I'm creating images in my backyard of a quality that was unheard of even just 20 twenty years ago. The early pioneers of this field would be in awe of what we amateurs -and professionals- are posting here. So, with that in mind, I do not get frustrated, envious or otherwise jealous of those who "win" the aforementioned awards. I'm very happy and excited for them. I analyze those images and study their descriptive narratives in an effort to discover what features and characteristics led to their being recognized and try to employ those techniques into my workflows to create the best images I can. I take pride in what I've accomplished here and don't need external validation to define who I am as an astrophotographer. I strive for progress, not perfection and constantly challenge myself to improve.
So, why are we here? Just to win awards and get all butt-hurt about it when we don't? No, I say. We're here to discover what's out there; and to marvel at the wonders of this magnificent, infinite universe of which we are a very small part. Just have fun! I hope this puts thing into perspective and I will now step down off the soapbox and hand the mic over to someone else.
Clear skies to all,
Patrick
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Arun H:
The thing about threads like this that brings out friction among people who otherwise respect each other. For example, the exchange that John and I had, or Andrea's note above. I deeply respect the work that Andrea, Tim Martin, Bill Mc Laughlin, John Hayes etc., do and these discussions need to be separate from that reality. Arun, I completely agree with your basic point but allow me expand on it just a little: In my view, disagreement is always completely independent of respect and that is true no matter who I'm communicating with. I try my best to always be respectful and to direct any disagreement to the subject at hand--and NEVER at a person. As you know, I'm not shy about disagreeing or about expressing an opinion but I want a dope slap if it ever comes across as a personal attack. That will NEVER be my intent no matter who is involved. And in general, I feel that most of the participant on AB communicate in the same way so let's all work to keep it that way. John
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Patrick Graham:
I strive for progress, not perfection and constantly challenge myself to improve.
So, why are we here? Just to win awards and get all butt-hurt about it when we don't? No, I say.
Clear skies to all,
Patrick And what yard stick do we use to measure that progress? I agree about getting not getting butt-hurt. That is a sign of maturity but a little bit of competition and recognition can drive innovation and advancement forward, both personally and as a community. Yes there is a point of diminishing returns but look at the history of the Schneider Trophy and it's impact on the history of WWII. I enjoy striving towards one of the awards here even though I have not been terribly successful. It helps propel me forward and push through ruts even if it occasionally causes frustration. Healthy competition is a corner stone of many human pursuits, even leisure pursuits. I personally enjoy "competing" in the on going competition here as much as the challenges hosted on another site. I personally wouldn't change either as I find merit in both formats. It's perfectly OK if one is motivated by something else. Participation is completely optional. I participate because I enjoy it and I see it as a healthy part of being a community. Clear Skies.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Hi all,
I fully agree with Aaron Lisco. It is like Champions Leage and the National Leagues. They are separated as well.
No big deal to implement this. It will lead to two types of IOTD: Hosted and Backyard. Just fair.
Result will be more motivation for backyard imagers. Not everyone is willing to spend the money for hosted...
CS,
Klaus What a thorny issue. Results come from both Skill and Money. I don’t do this to “compete” in IOTD - but it does give me a good feeling to get the recognition for improving skill (and just maybe for improving artistic judgement). Clearly, people buying data and/or shipping equipment off to distant places are in a different league, just as professional baseball teams are far above 12 year old Little League baseball. Sports are segregated by age and sex for just this reason. It’s the only fair way to the groups as a whole. Note that what is fair to the individual really doesn’t matter, and if it did the entire system breaks down. But what happens to the Astrobin site if you do separate imagers by “leagues”? If A League beginners could be moved up to AA, AAA, and finally Major Leagues based on results, no matter how obtained? I would think that in a community this small, such a system would balkanize the Astrobin website. People that have 5 followers and no Recognitions would largely still have 5 followers and no Recognitions. People with hundreds of followers and many IOTDs would end up with 50 followers (those in their own League) and fewer recognitions due to stiffer competition. For now, Status Quo is probably best. And stop thinking of IOTD as scoring more than the other guy.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Joe Linington:
Patrick Graham:
I strive for progress, not perfection and constantly challenge myself to improve.
So, why are we here? Just to win awards and get all butt-hurt about it when we don't? No, I say.
Clear skies to all,
Patrick
And what yard stick do we use to measure that progress? I agree about getting not getting butt-hurt. That is a sign of maturity but a little bit of competition and recognition can drive innovation and advancement forward, both personally and as a community. Yes there is a point of diminishing returns but look at the history of the Schneider Trophy and it's impact on the history of WWII. I enjoy striving towards one of the awards here even though I have not been terribly successful. It helps propel me forward and push through ruts even if it occasionally causes frustration. Healthy competition is a corner stone of many human pursuits, even leisure pursuits. I personally enjoy "competing" in the on going competition here as much as the challenges hosted on another site. I personally wouldn't change either as I find merit in both formats.
It's perfectly OK if one is motivated by something else. Participation is completely optional. I participate because I enjoy it and I see it as a healthy part of being a community.
Clear Skies. Joe, I like your response. I, too. enjoy participating in this forum and on this site. I guess my yardstick of progress would be a comparison of my images to those images of others. But not in the perspective of "their images are better, mine are crap" or vice versa. It would be a comparison from a perspective of what tools and techniques are they using that I might employ to improve my acquisition and processing skills. Another yardstick of progress, and for me most important, is to go back to my earliest images and actually see the improvement over the course of time. This produces a feeling of self-respect and self-confidence that no award or opinion can give me. This is what encourages me to strive for improvement. I am not in competition with anyone here. Quite the contrary as stated in my previous post. I'm active in a passionate and enjoyable (thou sometimes frustrating) hobby where my journey is the priority, not the destination. A final thought: All of us desire to be recognized and respected on some level. This is perfectly normal. However, I don't let it define my self-worth as an astrophotographer or as an individual. My self-esteem comes from within and is defined by how I choose to overcome the challenges and move toward my personal definition of success. I'm confident I'm right where I need to be on this journey. .....and dammit, people like me!!! (apologies to Stewart Smalley) Anyway, Keep on keepin' on Pat
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
IOTD is not a competition. In order for it to be so, very clear rules would need to be established on the judging process that both the judges and contestants would understand. It would also require that all submitted images be judged, and that judgements would be detailed in a report.
the current process is more intuitive and somewhat random.
IOTD is more of a “selected example of a job well done” type recognition.
I enjoy learning from these selects, but I get judged enough in other life pursuits.
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
For me as a bortle-4 traveler in subpar seeing conditions the IOTD system shall not be categorized for a singular reason: If there comes a day where I get an IOTD it should still be the grand achievement that it is today - Not interested on a Europa League type of recognition. -CS, Rabeea
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
Hi all,
I think the time to implement this is now. Result will be a harder competition between hosted imagers. Good for them, they will learn a lot from each orher an invest more on their gear.
Advantages for average equipped imagers as me will be increased chances for rewards.
And this is, what many of us without hosted scopes want!!!
CS,
Klaus
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
This topic is now closed. The question or issue presented has been addressed thoroughly, and explanations provided. Additionally, this is a topic that has come up several times during the years and the rationale behind the decision to not split the IOTD/TP in categories is address in the FAQ: https://welcome.astrobin.com/iotd#faq. Thank you for participating!
|
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
You cannot remove your like from this item.
Editing a post is only allowed within 24 hours after creating it.
You cannot Like this post because the topic is closed.
Copy the URL below to share a direct link to this post.
This post cannot be edited using the classic forums editor.
To edit this post, please enable the "New forums experience" in your settings.
