Hi all,
I fully agree with Aaron Lisco. It is like Champions Leage and the National Leagues. They are separated as well.
No big deal to implement this. It will lead to two types of IOTD: Hosted and Backyard. Just fair.
Result will be more motivation for backyard imagers. Not everyone is willing to spend the money for hosted…
CS,
Klaus
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So riddle me this - if we are to separate backyard from remote; why should there not be a category for B1 to B5 backyard and another for B6+? Why, as a backyard imager in a B6 location must I compete against someone who has a dome on Haleakala? Is that not unfair? And while we are at it, I struggle to get more than 4-5 clear nights a month. So why should I be forced to be disadvantaged by competing against backyarders with many more clear nights a month? Should not each category be further subdivided based on percent of clear, smoke free nights they get?
it is utterly mind blowing to me that this thread is started by someone who has a dome at a location most of us would kill to image from and they STILL feel disadvantaged! What I really feel is happening here is that each person wants a category that gives them an advantage over everyone else. Sorry, this is just plain silly. At the end of the day, accept that good images come from a combination of skill and a huge element of equipment and location. That’s the reality of the hobby you have chosen. If this reality is hard for you to deal with, choose a different one.
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Let’s do a little provocation…
I propose IOTD is randomly selected from the images submitted each day.
Once a photographer has obtained the IOTD, he or she cannot have it again until all other photographers have obtained it.
The same goes for TP (but 4-5 are selected per day) and TPN (but 10-12 are selected per day).
As much as everyone is special, no one is special anymore…
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Let’s do a little provocation...
I propose IOTD is randomly selected from the images submitted each day.
Once a photographer has obtained the IOTD, he or she cannot have it again until all other photographers have obtained it.
The same goes for TP (but 4-5 are selected per day) and TPN (but 10-12 are selected per day).
As much as everyone is special, no one is special anymore… Sort of like everyone gets a trophy......
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Tony Gondola:
Let’s do a little provocation...
I propose IOTD is randomly selected from the images submitted each day.
Once a photographer has obtained the IOTD, he or she cannot have it again until all other photographers have obtained it.
The same goes for TP (but 4-5 are selected per day) and TPN (but 10-12 are selected per day).
As much as everyone is special, no one is special anymore…
Sort of like everyone gets a trophy......  |
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See my post above. Every time I capture, process and post an image I think is good, I nominate it for IOD!! For me, it is, so why not. Try doing it yourself, at least you'll get one vote for IOD and that's all that matters.
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Timothy Martin:
Aaron Lisco:
There are Numerous Sites in the USA alone where you can send your Entire rig and they will set it up colimate, focus the optics install software and do test runs to make sure its all as good as it can get...all done by people with a lot of experience in optics and Astronomy software.
That's not how this works. That's just not how any of this works. I spent six months setting up and testing each of my three remote rigs here at home before I took them on site. The setup is much more complex (and waaaay more expensive) for these rigs than it is for my home rigs. They have to be 100% automated. 99% automated means 0 seconds integration time--not a great outcome when you're paying $30 a day for a pier. Since I installed these rigs 660 miles away two years ago, I've driven to the site four times and flown there eight times to work out issues. I do get wonderful help from onsite staff. But ultimately, it's my responsibility to ensure that they work. Remote imaging is much, much harder than home imaging. It's not even close.
In any case, there's value in both home and remote imaging. Try to remember that IOTD is a marketing vehicle for Astrobin. It's not really a reward structure for imagers. Its job is to showcase the very best images and build interest in the site. Any benefits (and there are many) to imagers are ancillary. It's nice to receive some recognition for hard work, but it's fleeting. The satisfaction you derive from this has to come from you--not someone else. *** 30 dollars a day for a pier. Wow! Would that be typical for a rental at one of those remote sites? Not that I’d be able to avail of the opportunity … much too far away. And there’s plenty of dark sky sites only a short drive from where I live … but the problem is the sky conditions rarely cooperate. Packing everything up only to have to return without even setting up gets old after awhile. As far as the OP’s comment goes, it does seem a little unfair, if that’s what you are interested in … but in my opinion it’s best to make the most of what you have and enjoy it while you can. Any incidental rewards that might come your way in the meantime would just be icing on the cake.***
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*** 30 dollars a day for a pier. Wow! Would that be typical for a rental at one of those remote sites? Not that I’d be able to avail of the opportunity … much too far away. And there’s plenty of dark sky sites only a short drive from where I live … but the problem is the sky conditions rarely cooperate. Packing everything up only to have to return without even setting up gets old after awhile. That's the selling point of a permanent setup in a dark sky (say in a dome under B1 skies in Hawaii  ). Pier costs often depend on the foot print. It can run to many hundreds of dollars a month depending on where you put it and what you're housing. But, the ability to setup NINA to schedule targets and know that if the roof opens, you're going to image that night is worth the cost IMO. I don't regret it for a moment but I have a budget that allows me to do it.
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Ok, first I want to say that what we have now is pretty good, not perfect by any means but I would hate to be a judge. That said, if there were to be divisions I'd like to se something setup according to aperture. It does feel disheartening at times to see an image you like and find out it was taken with a 24" RC with over 100 hours of integration.. Pitting my little 6" against that seems pretty useless. You can integrate forever, process it perfectly and still be totally outclassed. I'm not complaining and I assume the judges take that into account but it does take the winds out of one's sails at times.
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*** 30 dollars a day for a pier. Wow! Would that be typical for a rental at one of those remote sites? I don't know about all sites. Starfront has much lower prices for small rigs, but for large ones, it's about $27 a day. Some places may be slightly cheaper. I've heard $60 a day for a setup at SRO. Obstech in Chile is slightly more expensive than $30 a day regardless of footprint. Deep Sky Chile is cheaper. Some base the charge on footprint. Some don't. Some limit uploads, some don't. Some have high-speed internet, some have Starlink (  ). Some have facilities where you can stay or pads with hookups for your RV. Some don't. Some allow you to resell your data. Some want to be paid to let you do that. Some offer turnkey service, most don't. A very few provide 24/7 hands-on support. Some only provide hands-on support on specific days. Some have machine-shops and equipment stores. Most don't. When I arrived at the observatory for the first time with my first rig, it was just me and a very nice gentleman who helped me lift my rig up on the pier, showed me how to turn the lights on and off, and showed me how to lock up when I left. That was it. There's no standard price, no standard pricing system, and no standard service level. The only common thread among almost all, if not all, of them is that they are personality driven. That is, you're going to get only what the owner gives you. And these sites can come and go on a whim. Multae admonitiones emptoris. I get the angst over pay to play. But while I get it, I'm not terribly sympathetic to it. As I said above, recognition is nice, but it's ethereal and extremely short-lived. You simply cannot derive satisfaction from this avocation by collecting digital badges from a subjective and capricious awards process. If that's what drives you, maybe you should look elsewhere for fulfillment. Nevertheless, I think Salvatore has long been engaged in developing a community-driven awards process that allows things to be divided into all sorts of categories. My understanding is that IOTD stays the way it is and continues to be the face of Astrobin. But it sounds like to me that if you want to enter a contest for "Best Image Taken with a Tootsie-roll Wrapper Under Water During a Dust Storm," you'll soon be able to.
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Tony Gondola:
Let’s do a little provocation...
I propose IOTD is randomly selected from the images submitted each day.
Once a photographer has obtained the IOTD, he or she cannot have it again until all other photographers have obtained it.
The same goes for TP (but 4-5 are selected per day) and TPN (but 10-12 are selected per day).
As much as everyone is special, no one is special anymore…
Sort of like everyone gets a trophy...... Oh I love participation trophies! 😉
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Tony Gondola:
Ok, first I want to say that what we have now is pretty good, not perfect by any means but I would hate to be a judge. That said, if there were to be divisions I'd like to se something setup according to aperture. It does feel disheartening at times to see an image you like and find out it was taken with a 24" RC with over 100 hours of integration.. Pitting my little 6" against that seems pretty useless. You can integrate forever, process it perfectly and still be totally outclassed. I'm not complaining and I assume the judges take that into account but it does take the winds out of one's sails at times. There are MANY things that impact the quality of an image, assuming equal processing skill - seeing, availability of clear sky time, aperture, light pollution. How you would like to see the “ideal” division is highly dependent on which one of these factors you personally perceive to be most limiting and that will be different for different people and different even depending on what they want to image. For me, personally, availability of clear sky time and light pollution are the two big factors, aperture less so. The solution is not to Balkanize the IOTd. The solution is for each individual to largely disregard the IOTD and instead focus on a set of imagers who image with equipment similar to what they have or in conditions similar to theirs. If this still doesn’t give you the quality of images you desire, the solution is to remove the limitations. For example by installing large scopes in dark sites with great seeing.
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Arun H:
Tony Gondola:
Ok, first I want to say that what we have now is pretty good, not perfect by any means but I would hate to be a judge. That said, if there were to be divisions I'd like to se something setup according to aperture. It does feel disheartening at times to see an image you like and find out it was taken with a 24" RC with over 100 hours of integration.. Pitting my little 6" against that seems pretty useless. You can integrate forever, process it perfectly and still be totally outclassed. I'm not complaining and I assume the judges take that into account but it does take the winds out of one's sails at times.
There are MANY things that impact the quality of an image, assuming equal processing skill - seeing, availability of clear sky time, aperture, light pollution. How you would like to see the “ideal” division is highly dependent on which one of these factors you personally perceive to be most limiting and that will be different for different people and different even depending on what they want to image. For me, personally, availability of clear sky time and light pollution are the two big factors, aperture less so. The solution is not to Balkanize the IOTd. The solution is for each individual to largely disregard the IOTD and instead focus on a set of imagers who image with equipment similar to what they have or in conditions similar to theirs. If this still doesn’t give you the quality of images you desire, the solution is to remove the limitations. For example by installing large scopes in dark sites with great seeing. I agree it's not a simple but no solution will be. That's not a reason to not explore the subject.
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Timothy Martin:
*** 30 dollars a day for a pier. Wow! Would that be typical for a rental at one of those remote sites?
I don't know about all sites. Starfront has much lower prices for small rigs, but for large ones, it's about $27 a day. Some places may be slightly cheaper. I've heard $60 a day for a setup at SRO. Obstech in Chile is slightly more expensive than $30 a day regardless of footprint. Deep Sky Chile is cheaper. Some base the charge on footprint. Some don't. Some limit uploads, some don't. Some have high-speed internet, some have Starlink (). Some have facilities where you can stay or pads with hookups for your RV. Some don't. Some allow you to resell your data. Some want to be paid to let you do that. Some offer turnkey service, most don't. A very few provide 24/7 hands-on support. Some only provide hands-on support on specific days. Some have machine-shops and equipment stores. Most don't. When I arrived at the observatory for the first time with my first rig, it was just me and a very nice gentleman who helped me lift my rig up on the pier, showed me how to turn the lights on and off, and showed me how to lock up when I left. That was it.
There's no standard price, no standard pricing system, and no standard service level. The only common thread among almost all, if not all, of them is that they are personality driven. That is, you're going to get only what the owner gives you. And these sites can come and go on a whim. Multae admonitiones emptoris.
I get the angst over pay to play. But while I get it, I'm not terribly sympathetic to it. As I said above, recognition is nice, but it's ethereal and extremely short-lived. You simply cannot derive satisfaction from this avocation by collecting digital badges from a subjective and capricious awards process. If that's what drives you, maybe you should look elsewhere for fulfillment. Nevertheless, I think Salvatore has long been engaged in developing a community-driven awards process that allows things to be divided into all sorts of categories. My understanding is that IOTD stays the way it is and continues to be the face of Astrobin. But it sounds like to me that if you want to enter a contest for "Best Image Taken with a Tootsie-roll Wrapper Under Water During a Dust Storm," you'll soon be able to. Glad to hear that sort of format is being considered. I think it would give photographers will smaller rigs a more relevant challenge.
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Perhaps it’s time to drop IOTD altogether. Pick a new image at random a couple of times each week.
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Tony Gondola:
Ok, first I want to say that what we have now is pretty good, not perfect by any means but I would hate to be a judge. That said, if there were to be divisions I'd like to se something setup according to aperture. It does feel disheartening at times to see an image you like and find out it was taken with a 24" RC with over 100 hours of integration.. Pitting my little 6" against that seems pretty useless. You can integrate forever, process it perfectly and still be totally outclassed. I'm not complaining and I assume the judges take that into account but it does take the winds out of one's sails at times. Ok then...which is more disheartening? To lose an award to an image from a 24" RC and 100 hours of exposure time or to spend 100 hours of exposure with a 24" RC and lose out to a guy with a 24 mm lens on a DSLR? They are two sides of the same coin. If you feel that disadvantaged, just opt out of the judging. On the other hand, if you want to participate, you have to get over the fact that a lot of the time, your images are going to get overlooked no matter what equipment you use. That's just the way it works. John
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John Hayes:
Tony Gondola:
Ok, first I want to say that what we have now is pretty good, not perfect by any means but I would hate to be a judge. That said, if there were to be divisions I'd like to se something setup according to aperture. It does feel disheartening at times to see an image you like and find out it was taken with a 24" RC with over 100 hours of integration.. Pitting my little 6" against that seems pretty useless. You can integrate forever, process it perfectly and still be totally outclassed. I'm not complaining and I assume the judges take that into account but it does take the winds out of one's sails at times.
Ok then...which is more disheartening? To lose an award to an image from a 24" RC and 100 hours of exposure time or to spend 100 hours of exposure with a 24" RC and lose out to a guy with a 24 mm lens on a DSLR? They are two sides of the same coin. If you feel that disadvantaged, just opt out of the judging. On the other hand, if you want to participate, you have to get over the fact that a lot of the time, your images are going to get overlooked no matter what equipment you use. That's just the way it works.
John John - to be fair, how often do guys with 24” RCs lose to guys with DSLRs? Of course it happens, but let us not pretend equipment does not matter. It does. the IOTD stats you shared prove it. Backyarders submit 60% of the the images but only win 30% of the top awards. In contrast, own remote is only 15% of submitters but win 37% of awards. In other words, remote hosters win more awards in spite of submitting four times fewer images. As you yourself mentioned - this is so because serious imagers make a greater commitment of time, money, and effort in setting up equipment in optimum places They wouldn’t do this if they didn’t think it helped. If a guy with a DSLR could consistently outclass a 24” RC, there would be a lot bigger market for DSLRs in the Astro imaging community 😀
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I would just rather turn off all the likes/voting/index scoring all together and look at the images and the circumstances they were taken and assess it all myself. Some people like the competition, some don't, but a setting to disable those features in posts, comments, index score, contribution scoring, and just turn it into informative info vs competition site would be interesting. If you like an image, just say so in a comment. I would even like a badge that says "non-competitor"  |
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Arun H:
John Hayes:
Tony Gondola:
Ok, first I want to say that what we have now is pretty good, not perfect by any means but I would hate to be a judge. That said, if there were to be divisions I'd like to se something setup according to aperture. It does feel disheartening at times to see an image you like and find out it was taken with a 24" RC with over 100 hours of integration.. Pitting my little 6" against that seems pretty useless. You can integrate forever, process it perfectly and still be totally outclassed. I'm not complaining and I assume the judges take that into account but it does take the winds out of one's sails at times.
Ok then...which is more disheartening? To lose an award to an image from a 24" RC and 100 hours of exposure time or to spend 100 hours of exposure with a 24" RC and lose out to a guy with a 24 mm lens on a DSLR? They are two sides of the same coin. If you feel that disadvantaged, just opt out of the judging. On the other hand, if you want to participate, you have to get over the fact that a lot of the time, your images are going to get overlooked no matter what equipment you use. That's just the way it works.
John
John - to be fair, how often do guys with 24” RCs lose to guys with DSLRs? Of course it happens, but let us not pretend equipment does not matter. It does. If a guy with a DSLR could consistently outclass a 24” RC, there would be a lot bigger market for DSLRs in the Astro imaging community 😀 You are right Arun. DSLRs along with 10" RCs, small refractors, and all sorts of other gear win IOTDs over large scopes all the time. If gear was all that mattered, @Wolfgang Promper would win ALL of the awards, all the time. I won't name names but I could point to more than a few images taken with CDK 24 scopes that are very far from winning anything. In my view, anyone who thinks that it's strictly about the gear either has an inferiority complex or is looking for an excuse. Heck, just go look at the gear used to create the IOTD that's on the home page today. John
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John Hayes:
I won't name names but I could point to more than a few images taken with CDK 24 scopes that are very far from winning anything. In my view, anyone who thinks that it's strictly about the gear either has an inferiority complex or is looking for an excuse. Heck, just go look at the gear used to create the IOTD that's on the home page today. John - the subject matter of today's IOTD is very different from what one would take with a 24" RC. So it is a bit of comparing apples and oranges. To be clear, it is possible to take bad images with any piece of gear. To also be clear, your awards and those of Wolfgang Promper are a testament not just to the equipment you use but your effort and skills, and I have no hesitation in saying that you deserve every bit of it and more. And, by the way, I never claimed that it was strictly about gear - perhaps someone else did, I cannot say. My point simply is that, for equal skill and effort, equipment and location can be huge advantages. The data and physics prove it. I am not proposing changing anything. But I do think it is not right to deny what is objective reality.
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Personally, I don't care, who or what took the IOTD, how often or when. The IOTD has to be a special image. Each image has to be judged according to the content of that image in question, and nothing else. Something rather unique and new to a specific target. I want to learn something when I click on it. Otherwise we need to start complaining to NASA about their APODs because that pesky $10billion dollar telescope that was put beyond the moon or that rover that we put on Mars' surface is unfairly beating all us peasants with 4 inch refractors in hot and humid B9 backyards.
In fact, I find the statistics that John had quoted to make sense and I am surprised at how much backyard imagers are winning IOTD and TP. I did not think it was that well distributed. I suspect some of it has to do with Solar system imaging by the likes of Tom Williams probably helping push up those images.
And yes, if my backyard was a dome under B1/B2 skies on top of Haleakalā, I don't think I would have anything to complain about.
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Arun H:
...the subject matter of today's IOTD is very different from what one would take with a 24" RC. So it is a bit of comparing apples and oranges. Arun, You are missing my point. Of course the subject matter is different. The (now previous) IOTD was taken by very modest equipment and my point is that images created using very modest equipment win IOTD awards all the time. John
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I won't lie, I cannot be bothered reading all the back and forth on the topic.
I'll simply pitch in by saying that if we separate backyard and hosted, we're opening the door to a potential flood of categorisations: within "hosted", some may want categories by budget to level the field ; within "backyard", some may want DSLR/lens separated from astro-dedicated cameras/telescope ; we could separate retirees and working-age astronomers to account for time/resource availability ; etc …
I'm not saying that's what the topic author suggests/wants, but I would like to point at enough similar examples in other aspects of life to be weary of such a change for AstroBin.
It is as good a platform and community as can be, kept simple and not designed to promote users' ego (let's actually ditch the "Like" button so sterile discussion about the "Dislike" one can go away). Yes, ego is there for many (too many in my opinion …) but let's keep AB the way it is.
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you're paying $30 a day for a pier Dilemma alert ! If I give up coffee I could use the savings for a remote pier BUT then having the remote pier I'd need coffee again !! Drat !
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John Hayes:
I purchased and configured my own gear. I paid to ship it to Chile. I flew down there and set up both of my systems (over multiple trips). Virtually no one has touched my gear except me and I run it every clear night. Agreed! I have a similar attitude with my remote site, although it is not in Chile, it is a two day drive from me. I still go down there myself at least once a year (next week, in fact) to do maintenance and upgrades. The site owner is excellent but I just want to do my own installation and setup and upgrades as much as possible which makes the image much more "mine". Unlike most people who have a remote site due to light pollution at home, I also live at a pretty dark site but it is in the Pacific NW so winter weather is my issue at home. If I had to do all my imaging at home I would get less than 1/4 of the images I do at present. For me it is not about where the images were taken or even what equipment was used but about how much effort has gone into the whole process from setup to processing and just who did that work. The more you do, the more credit you deserve as well as vice-versa. For that reason, if I have an issue with images, it would be with people that are just buying data or renting time on a huge scope since they have done zero as far as equipment is concerned. For me it is less about the site than it is about the total effort and dedication involved..
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