I understand what the OP means, I just don't feel the same way. If the OP feels like this is competing perhaps he is in wrong hobby.
In this case I feel lucky for not being a competitive person and I couldn't care less about IOTDs - actually I'm not sure how to submit it. I don't even use blur Xterminator even tho I know it drastically enhances astroimages. I don't want my images with such a drastic interference. My images are average, my processing workflow very basic but... I'm very happy with my images!
I could see it diferently: I could look at someone else's images captured (actually I do) with a crappy imaging train, bad guiding, worse sky than mine and less integration time with incredible processing including blur X and Voila. Same target as mine but sharper, tiny round stars from corner to corner. In this case I could feel like an idiot but I don't - because I don't compare myself with others. I even click and like other's images even tho I know they used software tools and techniques I don't and I still enjoy them! Including remote imagers! I just don't want this for myself.[b] [/b]
In the end it is a matter of choice. Being physically present is part of the whole experience for me. For other folks not so much, they just want acquire the data and that's ok. Maybe they got tired or bored of looking up. Maybe they have never had the chills looking at the milkyway core. Maybe they've had for a good portion of their lives (specially older folks who grew up being able to see the sky with naked eyes). They have their own reasons to feel good about operating remote. If you don't, just don't do it.
In 5 years on the hobby I've spent 1.5 years (yes, that much) worth of my income with astronomy and astrophotography including buying land, changing my lifestyle, living 10 min drive from the closest human being. I could call it unfair knowing that what I've spent I could rent a fairly simple setup under B1 skies or coutless hours of Chilescope. Neither of these possibilities ever crossed my mind.
I do what I do because I love it. Sharing is just part of it.
Comparing yourself to others is the perfect recipe for unhappiness.
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Aaron Lisco:
So if you have an issue with your equipment you just head on over and fix it ? or does someone like in the Hosting sites in the US go over to your scope and sort it out? Troubleshooting my own remote setup has been far more challenging than troubleshooting my setup in my backyard. 90% of the time you do the heavy lifting and trouble shooting, and your tech just executes what you think the fix could be. Myself I am just hosting the backyard equipment that I used for many months personally before I got comfortable operating it remotely.
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For background to my comments, I own my own observatory and the equipment inside (C14 and C11). I operate in Bortle 2 skies in the Southern Hemisphere. So I have really good equipment and skies.
I like getting the recognition of Top Pick Nominations, Top Picks and IOTD when I get them. However, as others have said, I mostly value the recognition and feedback from my peers, be that positive or negative. It has always been constructive and that is to my benefit. If I don't get official recognition, even if I think I deserve it, well that is just too bad. The judges have a difficult job and do their best and I have to say that in the main, I have felt that their recongition of images is well merited. My perception is that they also try to be even handed in giving accolades across a range of astro-imaging genres. It is also clear that the standard is lifting continuously, I presume due to greater numbers of astroimagers joining the site and improvements in equipment and image processing techniques. It is to be expected that getting accolades will be more difficult.
In terms, of categorising the images for judging, once starting down this path, you open a whole new can of worms. Having separated Backyard from Hosted Sites, the argument will begin around the quality of the skies that Backyard imagers have access to. Then around the cost of their equipment. What about the software that they use for processing? etc.
Any such system is going to be criticised, no matter the criteria used for judging. To my way of think the current system works pretty well and the judging is even handed and does take into account the astroimagers circumstances to an extent. Any change, such as the one you suggest, will just add complexity and make the judges' jobs more difficult. It will also create further argument about the next tiers of categorization.
If it really bothers you, there is always the option to remove your images from the judging process.
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Aaron Lisco:
There are Numerous Sites in the USA alone where you can send your Entire rig and they will set it up colimate, focus the optics install software and do test runs to make sure its all as good as it can get...all done by people with a lot of experience in optics and Astronomy software. That's not how this works. That's just not how any of this works. I spent six months setting up and testing each of my three remote rigs here at home before I took them on site. The setup is much more complex (and waaaay more expensive) for these rigs than it is for my home rigs. They have to be 100% automated. 99% automated means 0 seconds integration time--not a great outcome when you're paying $30 a day for a pier. Since I installed these rigs 660 miles away two years ago, I've driven to the site four times and flown there eight times to work out issues. I do get wonderful help from onsite staff. But ultimately, it's my responsibility to ensure that they work. Remote imaging is much, much harder than home imaging. It's not even close. In any case, there's value in both home and remote imaging. Try to remember that IOTD is a marketing vehicle for Astrobin. It's not really a reward structure for imagers. Its job is to showcase the very best images and build interest in the site. Any benefits (and there are many) to imagers are ancillary. It's nice to receive some recognition for hard work, but it's fleeting. The satisfaction you derive from this has to come from you--not someone else.
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Tony Gondola:
The only person I'm competing against is myself......and the laws of physics. … and the laws of physics usually win… 🤗
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=16pxSome other, defensible ways to divide us up might be:- Southern vs. Northern hemisphere
- Beginning vs. intermediate/advanced The problem here is how do you certify you are beginning, intermediate or advanced? Then the discussion becomes “you are cheating saying you are only beginning” just to be awarded…” and so on.
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I think the hobby as a whole has another bigger problem.
In my opinion the image quality has hit a ceiling, no matter if amateur backyard or professional site. There are already many sky areas with nothing more to gain.
astrophotography is taking the same way normal photography has taken already long ago.
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OP, at the risk of sounding harsh, which is not my intention. You have 81 images with an average of 4.6 hours of integration time. Putting all the remote images aside, with an average that low on each image, you'll never touch the remaining ones who image in their own backyard. If you want an IOTD you better step up your game. Not ask for more categories. I've learned a lesson that while processing skills are very important, good data from lots of integration is everything. I used to image two targets in a night. However, I now know that doesn't cut it. If you have the conditions and location you say you do, just think what possibilities for 30, 40 or 60 hours would get you. You might even find yourself looking down the barrel of an IOTD.
The galaxy I'm processing now, 56 hours.
Mike
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Tony Gondola:
The only person I'm competing against is myself......and the laws of physics.
… and the laws of physics usually win…
🤗
usually? In what universe? In the one I live in, they always win. Hence the term “laws”. If they usually won, we would call them guidelines 😀!
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Anderl:
In my opinion the image quality has hit a ceiling, no matter if amateur backyard or professional site. There are already many sky areas with nothing more to gain. I respectfully disagree. There's still a whole lot to do out there that pushes the envelope. New discoveries are being made continually. But beyond that, there are all sorts of new, creative ways to approach most fields. It's not easy to come up with them, but it can be done.
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Arun H:
Tony Gondola:
The only person I'm competing against is myself......and the laws of physics.
… and the laws of physics usually win…
🤗
usually? In what universe? In the one I live in, they always win. Hence the term “laws”. If they usually won, we would call them guidelines 😀! I like “physics guidelines”
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Aaron Lisco:
I love being able to share my pictures that i have taken here on Astrobin. It is a fantastic platform for doing so. The one concern i have is this and i wonder if i am being to sensitive or if it is time for a change to the site to make the playing field a bit more even for those who plan on submitting IOTD pics.
Over the past several years more and more people are using Hosting sites to capture data. whether it is an Amateur hosting facility located in Chile, Italy or in Arizona people are paying to download and process DATA, There are Numerous Sites in the USA alone where you can send your Entire rig and they will set it up colimate, focus the optics install software and do test runs to make sure its all as good as it can get...all done by people with a lot of experience in optics and Astronomy software.
I have Zero issue with that i think if you can't get dark skies where you are and want to get better DATA then go for it !!
What i would like to see change is the way Astrobin evaluates Images for the IOFD I think that a backyard Imager going up against a Professional grad set up like those in Chile and others as well as Local hosting sites where you send your gear and do not do the setip or maintain the equipment is an Unfair comparison.
While i am at Haleakala Maui Hawaii a top 5 site in the world for imaging and I am inside a dome out of the wind with access to some of the best Bortle 1-2 skies in the world I still have to do ALL the setup myself. I have to open the dome Home the mount colimate the scope check the Polar alignment Focus the Lens, Adjust for tilt and Capture the DATA on my computer using all the Equipment i set up and maintain.
I think there should be separate categorizes simply Backyard meaning you do it all.... and Hosting meaning anything that is not 100% in your control in all detail .
So i guess i would like to know is if others feel this way ?
Mahalo I would have to agree here with @andrea tasselli . You have a dome at Haleakala and you are complaining? I would say you have considerable advantages over most of the people on Astrobin and massive advantages over the people that have remote setups in that you live close to your setup and can troubleshoot much more easily and can have equipment much less robust. Haleakala was where I had the most beautiful view of the Milky Way I have ever seen - it literally took my breath away. If you are not satisfied with your images either in your own assessment of quality or that which others give them - I would say the problem does not lie with the Astrobin awards system. If an IOTD is what will make you happy, that is far more within your control than for most people on this website. If I were you, I’d be grateful for the abundance of riches you have!
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This is not new, but I thank the OP for raising it as it clearly is an ongoing issue for many, and I respect that. On balance I feel that the system is imperfect, but I can't really think of anything better., other than perhaps the one issue flagged below. Separating out backyard would likely help me, and I have a observatory in my back garden under Bortle 2 skies, that hardly seems fair to lump that in with the true heroes who lug their gear out each night under B7-B8 skies. @John Hayes table is instructive and yes there is a clear trend toward remote observatories getting more rewards, but I suspect that is largely for the reason John put forward. However, I don't think that we can also rule out that the data from remote observatories is also just instrisically better. I have been lucky enough to have received 58 TPNs, 24 TPs but no IOTDs. I suspect that this is simply because my data is simply of inferior quality to others as I live in an area of poor seeing. Perhaps I have also pushed it attempt to emulate those folks with better seeing sites. There may also be an unconscious bias introduced due to the fact that the IOTD (as opposed to TP/NTP) consideration is - at least as I understand it - not anonymous. As others have said, we don't do this for the awards but for the community. When awards come, it is both humbling and encouraging but trying to manipulate or increase your likelihood of an award seems - at least to me - to defeat the purpose of them. CS Brian
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Anderl:
I think the hobby as a whole has another bigger problem.
In my opinion the image quality has hit a ceiling, no matter if amateur backyard or professional site. There are already many sky areas with nothing more to gain.
astrophotography is taking the same way normal photography has taken already long ago. This is an interesting idea and there is some truth to it. Like 1000 photographers at the grand canyon, you really have to work hard to come up with something unique. With hardware, optics and software being as good as it is, it's getting harder to do that. The degree of automation we enjoy is also making possible super long integration times. That's great but it also means in certain cases practical limits are being reached. Just like daylight photography you can't just point your lens at something and expect an amazing result. You are going to have to work a lot harder than that.
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The big issue I see with seperating IOTD into categories is that: there's still only so many days in a year. Do you alternate between categories? Do you split it in 2 and make "AmateurIOTD" and "ProIOTD", in this case, which one do you display on the main page?
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Tony Gondola:
Anderl:
I think the hobby as a whole has another bigger problem.
In my opinion the image quality has hit a ceiling, no matter if amateur backyard or professional site. There are already many sky areas with nothing more to gain.
astrophotography is taking the same way normal photography has taken already long ago.
This is an interesting idea and there is some truth to it. Like 1000 photographers at the grand canyon, you really have to work hard to come up with something unique. With hardware, optics and software being as good as it is, it's getting harder to do that. The degree of automation we enjoy is also making possible super long integration times. That's great but it also means in certain cases practical limits are being reached. Just like daylight photography you can't just point your lens at something and expect an amazing result. You are going to have to work a lot harder than that. Astrophotography (like day time photography) is a personal journey that sometimes you share with others. Therefore what others did may push you to try the same but is not a brake to try it yourself. In addition, in my opinion, in 1000 photos of the same flower (or the same star or the same face) you can see 1000 different flowers (or stars or emotions). There will always be space for photography.
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Anderl:
astrophotography is taking the same way normal photography has taken already long ago. Indeed, or even better, astrophotography is bound to take the same way "normal" photography has taken already, long ago. The Group f/64, consisting of proponents of edge-to-edge ultrasharp, precisely framed photographs was formed back in 1930's. This was called "pure photography" back then. Photography has progressed far beyond that. Tony Gondola:
This is an interesting idea and there is some truth to it. Like 1000 photographers at the grand canyon, you really have to work hard to come up with something unique. With hardware, optics and software being as good as it is, it's getting harder to do that. The degree of automation we enjoy is also making possible super long integration times. That's great but it also means in certain cases practical limits are being reached. Just like daylight photography you can't just point your lens at something and expect an amazing result. You are going to have to work a lot harder than that. So true. As long as a certain threshold on S/N ratio and star shape (not inherent to optics used) is reached, things like the presentation and the story behind an image will make the difference. By "story" I don't mean copying excerpts from NASA APOD or Wikipedia, or how hard was to reach a 65-hour-exposure goal. In contests organized by remote site businesses, we have seen how great data can be ruined by poor processing and presentation choices. So no, Bortle-zero skies and 1m telescopes are not guaranteed to always produce unique and amazing images.
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Médéric Hébert:
The big issue I see with seperating IOTD into categories is that: there's still only so many days in a year. Do you alternate between categories? Do you split it in 2 and make "AmateurIOTD" and "ProIOTD", in this case, which one do you display on the main page? In my opinion, the big issue with categories is who controls that the image was actually obtained by the gear (or bortle sky, or whatever variable is used to categorize) that is declared? AB is a self reporting system based on fairness, with no advantage in cheating. In case of categories, and if I was unfair, I may use Hubble data and write I used a 10" self made newtonian in my backyard. Who comes and have a look if this is true?
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Jeffery Richards:
So I am moving my setup to Howling Coyote Remote Observatory in October. I am taking down my equipment in my backyard rolloff and will be personally delivering it to NM and will be personally setting it up and babysitting it until I am 100% satisfied it is good to go for a "longer distance" remote operation than my backyard. I will at least annually go out there to do basic maintenance and such. So where do I stand? Yep, if something goes wrong Greg and crew will take care of it for me between my visits. Again, does that eliminate me from the "backyard" group? Excellent choice. The site in Pie Town is fantastic!
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Hi there!
I image from my back yard. I also have access to remote scopes in Chile and Hakos. Would you like to guess which image source has performed better in my gallery?
Also, I'm extremely surprised no one has pointed out where you image from. You may have a little bit of light pollution, however you are imaging from a location that I would put up against Chile for seeing conditions.
This argument is beat to death on this site, but I do enjoy when it pops up. My backyard is considered bortle 4, maybe even 5, yet I have no complaints when it comes to my imagery competing against remote. Capturing the data is less than half the battle. The real battle is figuring out how not to destroy your data and produce a respectable image.
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I don’t care much about IOTD and I pity those who get overly upset about it. However, I wouldn’t mind a separate site or section reserved for those who image from their house or when traveling. There is something special about an image not captured at a remote hosting facility.
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What I would find more useful and appreciate more than a separate category would be some feedback from the judges, especially on images that are almost there but not quite. I would love an IOTD and hope to get one one day but I only have 2 TPN's and those are both from Telescope live data, processed more basic tools than I use now and I have no idea why one of them stood out enough to earn votes. Nothing I have submitted has even been upvoted by a single reviewer recently and I would love a constructive comment or 2 from the judges. If there is a technical or processing fault that I could work on then that would be great to help me improve.
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This topic has been discussed before, and quite frankly there is no way you can categorise images in a way that is considered 'fair' across the board. Backyards range from bortle 8 to bortle 1. Setups (both hosted and backyard) range from < $1000 to > $100,000. Hosting ranges from 'buy the data' to 'your own backyard, just very far away'. Telescopes range from fully automatic to completely manual. Seeing conditions range from 1 to many arcsecs, and all hosting sites are not created equal either. Longitudes are widely different, etc. etc.
Looking at the numbers that John presented earlier, it seems to me that there is plenty of opportunity for images from all sources to be awarded.
Finally, in discussions about awards, remember that AB is not a competition. It's a thriving community where people share knowledge, ideas, and especially results (images). For me all images are a source of inspiration, not a ranking order.
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So long as bought data (or data in the public domain) is declared as such, I have zero problem with any images being awarded. There are plenty IOTD and top picks taken with Rokinon 135's on trackers. Or with wide angle lenses. Get out and take images and do it for yourself. Ultimately any art that I respect usually comes alongside a complete disrespect for rules and norms - be it photography, music or literature. My wife is an artist and we often discuss how people that have less talent and less hours in the craft do better. They sell themselves well, that is the answer. Not ability or talent. Our field is refreshing because most of us are not selling themselves, but simply documenting and capturing the beauty and amazing "stuff" that is out there. The ones doing it for likes, popularity, Youtube success and commercial success are the ones I am least likely to respect. Although I do admire people that can make a hobby into a living. Social media and public ranking is insidious… I post an image here and immediately know that if it is not bright and colourful it will not do well. Astrobin is not some sort of benchmark - because it is all art and all subjective. Sometimes I look at an IOTD and think "blurred, and not even aesthetically good and it is only getting an "award" because it is some super long focal length". But then I admire the dedication. Or I see a mad mosaic of 000s of hours that gets no recognition. Ultimately defining rules and criteria for artistic subjective endeavors is always going to be a nightmare, and I think Abin does a very good job with all things considered.
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Aaron, I generally agree with you. Backyard versus hosted site are different in many ways. Im a backyard guy like you. I built my own observatory, purchased installed and maintain all my own gear. When I have good sky, I walk outside and start the process. Sometimes I sit there for many hours watching my Scope, Mount, SGP, The Sky, PHD, monitoring the details. Sometimes its gets very cold, sometimes it gets wet. Sometimes (god forbid) there are issues to solve in the middle of a session. I really enjoy all that as many do. Some people take a different route and that's fine with me. I don't do this to "win" awards or get recognition. For me it's something I enjoy. Funny thing; every once and while I nominate my own images for IOD! Sure why not. To me I think the image is the image of the of day in my little world, so I recognize myself for all the work I did. Makes me feel good. Does anyone else know or even care….gee I don't know. It seems to me that everyone who does this hobby, by whatever means, has achieved a great accomplishment, this is complex science, whether your a backyard person or connecting to the best equipment in the world via the internet. I enjoy seeing other people's images from wherever they are captured , I learn something from every one. So, in the final analysis, all that matters to me is me and that Im happy. Have a good one friend.
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