Hello all, I've just started my AP journey so likely will not be submitting to IOTD anytime soon (especially living in a constantly cloudy Bortle 9), but I have imaging plans for the future that I hope will one day produce images worthy of consideration. In particular, I've built a browsable planet/DSO conjunction database : https://conspicuous-conjunction.com/calendar/conjunctions/And I hope to one day use it to capture images (or even short videos of a few dozen frames) of solar system objects passing through DSOs. I'll likely need to add minor planets and large asteroids to the database to make the conjunctions more abundant, as well as employ the right mix of processing techniques to capture a potentially large dynamic range, and maybe even employ separate stacking. My hope is if I ever do this well enough, the combination of originality and quality might make the result worthy of IOTD consideration. But I'm wondering if this isn't too naive, and would hate to clog up the backlog of what I understand to be unpaid volunteers with subpar submissions. Hence my overall question : Are there any unspoken rules regarding submission etiquette for IOTD consideration ? I can try to hold myself to a high standard, but obviously that's subjective. I guess what I'm trying to get at is what balance to strike between being a burden and not hesitating to submit things I'm personally satisfied with (again, that currently applies to nothing in my gallery right now, just asking for the future). Apologies if this has been asked before, my googling couldn't find anything. Clear skies
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Hi Patrick! On this page you find the IOTD/TP Rules as well as a thorough explanation of how the process works: https://welcome.astrobin.com/iotd |
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My protocol (for want of a better term) is to look at other images of an object you wish to image and find those that were taken with more or less similar systems in more or less similar conditions. I typically do this in the object selection process before imaging an object.
One can then use the bookmark feature to bookmark a few of those "best of object" images for reference. I think a lot of people do this. I no longer use the bookmark feature because, bizarrely, someone had a problem with me bookmarking their images w/o also "liking" them. If I do bookmark now, I do it locally on my browser.
But however you bookmark the better images of that object, it will give you a reference to shoot for in terms of quality. If, when I am done processing, I think my image approaches those standards, then I will submit it for TP/IOTD. In my case it has now gotten to the point where if my image does not approach those standards, I probably will not post the image on Astrobin at all so most of my posted images these days are submitted.
The flaw in this system, as has been pointed out by others, is that evaluators generally (as a part of the process) do not do a comparison to other excellent images of that same object so you might or might not gain an award for a better or best of object image.
But the idea here is not so much to gain an award as it is to be sure your image is at least good enough to have a shot at an award and not waste the time of the evaluators. So IMHO comparing to other images on Astrobin remains the best standard as to whether to submit for TP/IOTD or not.
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Bill McLaughlin:
I no longer use the bookmark feature because, bizarrely, someone had a problem with me bookmarking their images w/o also "liking" them. If I do bookmark now, I do it locally on my browser. Wow... this sounds like their problem tbh.
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Salvatore Iovene:
Hi Patrick!
On this page you find the IOTD/TP Rules as well as a thorough explanation of how the process works:
https://welcome.astrobin.com/iotd Thanks for the quick response ! Yes, I've already looked at that. I guess my question is more about how to make sure I'm within those guidelines to ensure I don't waste volunteers' time, but I guess there's no way around the inherent subjectivity of that. Bill McLaughlin:
My protocol (for want of a better term) is to look at other images of an object you wish to image and find those that were taken with more or less similar systems in more or less similar conditions. I typically do this in the object selection process before imaging an object. That's a good idea ! I guess where it kinda breaks with my objective is I'm aiming somewhat for originality by eventually aiming for animations of solar system object/DSO conjunctions, but I will aim for the background image to be on par with the best on astrobin. And I'm sure not all my submissions will be such animations, so very useful idea indeed. Bill McLaughlin:
I no longer use the bookmark feature because, bizarrely, someone had a problem with me bookmarking their images w/o also "liking" them. Wow that's weird. From what little I've seen the AP community is like 99% people who are welcoming, open, and willing to share and teach, and 1% people who just jump on any occasion to throw a hissy fit. That's actually a pretty good ratio compared to most, but "don't bookmark without liking me" has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever seen anyone get mad at.
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Patrick El Hage:
I guess my question is more about how to make sure I'm within those guidelines to ensure I don't waste volunteers' time That page has a "photographer's guidelines" section that shows what to be on the lookout for. If you can't eliminate the issues presented there from your image, then it will be unlikely to get votes in the IOTD/TP process (unless there are other aspects that make people overlook technical defects).
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Patrick El Hage:
"don't bookmark without liking me" has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever seen anyone get mad at. That was my thought as well since I have always seen bookmarking as a greater compliment than a like as well as much rarer and both will send the image to the main "wall" page. But I guess different people have different expectations so the simplest response was just to do neither. Lately I tend to limit my image likes to people that I actually know in the real world since it is, at the end of the day, a social thing. I do still do quite a few likes for forum posts since it is always nice to if others appreciated one's input.
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Bill McLaughlin:
Patrick El Hage:
"don't bookmark without liking me" has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever seen anyone get mad at.
That was my thought as well since I have always seen bookmarking as a greater compliment than a like as well as much rarer and both will send the image to the main "wall" page. But I guess different people have different expectations so the simplest response was just to do neither. Lately I tend to limit my likes to people that I actually know in the real world since it is, at the end of the day, a social thing. While I totally get how a single aggressive reaction can you put off interactions in general, I can tell you that the dozen or so likes I got on my first photos, some of them from clearly seasoned astrophotographers, were a great encouragement to me. I know there are obvious flaws in most of my photos, but just a few likes here and there (even got 1 bookmark !) really meant a lot to me and definitely encourages me to keep at it.
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Salvatore Iovene:
That page has a "photographer's guidelines" section that shows what to be on the lookout for. If you can't eliminate the issues presented there from your image, then it will be unlikely to get votes in the IOTD/TP process (unless there are other aspects that make people overlook technical defects). *Let's be honest about it: even if you adhere to ALL those "guidelines" you are very far from being guaranteed a slot in the IOTD train. What you are guaranteed of is that it doesn't get rejected out of hand.
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andrea tasselli:
Salvatore Iovene:
That page has a "photographer's guidelines" section that shows what to be on the lookout for. If you can't eliminate the issues presented there from your image, then it will be unlikely to get votes in the IOTD/TP process (unless there are other aspects that make people overlook technical defects).
*Let's be honest about it: even if you adhere to ALL those "guidelines" you are very far from being guaranteed a slot in the IOTD train. What you are guaranteed of is that it doesn't get rejected out of hand. I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm not trying to be competitive here. My concern is the opposite really : avoiding repeat low quality submissions that hog the reviewers' time for nothing.
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I think if you can honestly say you’ve done your best with the data and you’ve avoided the issues that the IOTD process mentions you’re well on your way to having an image worthy of submission, even if it doesn’t earn an award. If you’ve also done the work to compare it to other very good images of the same or similar subjects then you’re definitely well on your way. I wouldn’t hesitate to submit under those conditions. Probably the most important thing you can do to maximize your quality of results is to seek feedback from others.
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Patrick El Hage:
I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm not trying to be competitive here. My concern is the opposite really : avoiding repeat low quality submissions that hog the reviewers' time for nothing. *If you are not competitive then why bother with the IOTD process at all. Just enjoy your hobby and let the images do the speaking for themselves.
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andrea tasselli:
Patrick El Hage:
I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm not trying to be competitive here. My concern is the opposite really : avoiding repeat low quality submissions that hog the reviewers' time for nothing.
*If you are not competitive then why bother with the IOTD process at all. Just enjoy your hobby and let the images speaking for themselves. I would not mind trying my chance at an IOTD eventually if all it means is clicking a submit button and trying my luck with my most polished images. I am not so hell bent on winning though that I want to optimize the hell out of my chances and figure out exactly how to win. So enjoying the hobby and doing my best is exactly the plan, and I was just wondering how not to be a burden if while doing so I produce an image that inspires me to hit the "submit to IOTD" button.
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Unless you submit an image a day I doubt that would be much of an extra burden for the submitters.
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Hi
You database is a very nice initiative and contribution.
To my knowlege, there are no unspoken rule here. But be carefull : if you dive into the forum and make some readings there, you will see that there is here and there IOTD some frustration arising because people tend to consider that they do not get the recognition they deserved. I wish you to stay from this frustration path and a good way of doing so is to stay clear that IOTD is a side benefit and does not become what drives us into the hobby.
Best,
Patrice
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Patrick El Hage:
Bill McLaughlin:
I no longer use the bookmark feature because, bizarrely, someone had a problem with me bookmarking their images w/o also "liking" them.
Wow that's weird. From what little I've seen the AP community is like 99% people who are welcoming, open, and willing to share and teach, and 1% people who just jump on any occasion to throw a hissy fit. That's actually a pretty good ratio compared to most, but "don't bookmark without liking me" has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever seen anyone get mad at. Bill is talking about me. And there was hardly a hissy fit involved--at least from me. If anyone is torqued about it, it's the guy who keeps bringing it up. I just remarked that I thought it was impolite to bookmark someone's images repeatedly and use them for the purposes Bill has outlined here--that is, as a benchmark for their own work--without at least a small thank you. Likes keep an image on the wall where more people are likely to see it, so they're not without functional value. And from someone as experienced and accomplished as Bill, it would indeed be at least a tiny encouragement to others, like me, who are less experienced and expert at this. He's the only one I've ever seen do that--bookmark images repeatedly without ever a kind word or a single like. But it's really such a small thing--a tempest in a teacup. Bill is free to do whatever he wants.
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patrice_so:
Hi
You database is a very nice initiative and contribution.
To my knowlege, there are no unspoken rule here. But be carefull : if you dive into the forum and make some readings there, you will see that there is here and there IOTD some frustration arising because people tend to consider that they do not get the recognition they deserved. I wish you to stay from this frustration path and a good way of doing so is to stay clear that IOTD is a side benefit and does not become what drives us into the hobby.
Best,
Patrice I completely agree. IOTD is just a bonus. Overall I'm ecstatic with my results so far, despite some glaring flaws. I'm going to keep a casual attitude about it all and just submit when I feel like it's a particularly good image, come what may.
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Timothy Martin:
Likes keep an image on the wall where more people are likely to see it Just mentioning that bookmarks do the same thing. Likes, bookmarks, comments, new revisions, all make the image bubble up to the top.
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Salvatore Iovene:
Timothy Martin:
Likes keep an image on the wall where more people are likely to see it
Just mentioning that bookmarks do the same thing. Likes, bookmarks, comments, new revisions, all make the image bubble up to the top. Then to the extent that factored into my thinking, I owe Bill an apology.
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Timothy Martin:
Then to the extent that factored into my thinking, I owe Bill an apology. Thank You. I appreciate that.  I will say that now that I have started bookmarking locally I will probably keep doing it that way, not for any Astrobin related reason but because makes things easier now that I have a system for it and it allows me to use non-Astrobin images as well.
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Since this topic has veered, I think bookmarks should be private to the bookmarking user. They should be a useful tool for me to easily return to an image first and foremost, not another public measurement of an image's worth to the community. If I like an image, I'll leave a like and contribute to the poster's image index.
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Bill McLaughlin:
The flaw in this system, as has been pointed out by others, is that evaluators generally (as a part of the process) do not do a comparison to other excellent images of that same object so you might or might not gain an award for a better or best of object image. Not so. I can't speak for the reviewers, but as part of the Judging team, we make it part of our evaluation process to ALWAYS compare an image under consideration to previous IOTD's top pics, etc., prior to promotion to see if the image has brought something new, excellent, or relevant to the community.  CS Andy - AB Judging Team
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Andy 01:
we make it part of our evaluation process to ALWAYS compare an image under consideration to previous IOTD's top pics, etc., prior to promotion to see if the image has brought something new, excellent, or relevant to the community. OK, I will say that this idea was based on what either another evaluator (or maybe Salvatore, I don't recall as it was over a year ago), had said previously on the forum. Maybe that has changed.
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Patrick El Hage:
Thanks for the quick response ! Yes, I've already looked at that. I guess my question is more about how to make sure I'm within those guidelines to ensure I don't waste volunteers' time, but I guess there's no way around the inherent subjectivity of that. To get back to the topic at hand, for my part, I've posted every single astronomical image I've ever taken. There are a few I haven't submitted to the IOTD process but not many. The majority of those are ones that were based entirely on data I had already posted, but that are significantly different in some way--for example, a serious crop processed entirely differently than the original that highlights something not readily apparent in the original. In those cases, I don't feel it's appropriate to post it as a revision. But it's also not appropriate to try to sneak it into the IOTD process against the rules. In terms of wasting the volunteers' time, that's a very hard thing to measure. My very first IOTD was a shot that I didn't think would make it past the first submitter round: https://astrob.in/ttbwlc/0/ So even though you think your image may not have award-worthy qualities in some way, perhaps it does in some way you didn't consider. While the process itself is very transparent, the results are often inscrutable. It can depend so much on timing, tastes, target, frequency of target and other intangible variables. It may seem inconsistent on the surface of it. But over time, the results are pretty consistent. And it can be a big help in terms of personally learning what works and what doesn't. One thing is for sure--people are getting really, really good at this thing and positive outcomes from the IOTD process are getting harder and harder to achieve. I think you have to go into it expecting nothing and be pleasantly surprised when something does come out of it for you. I would also say not to worry about needlessly taking up volunteers' time. There's a way to pay that back--and that is to volunteer once you feel you're ready. I was a Submitter for two years and have been a Reviewer for a year. It's a great way to see fabulous images, learn about targets and gear, and just improve your general knowledge and skills. So even if you think you may be wasting someone's time, you're really not. It's an insane miracle that any of us can do this at all, and every astrophotographer has committed time and treasure to it. So from that standpoint, to me, every single image--no matter how good it is--has value and deserves some attention. Just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.
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Bill McLaughlin:
Andy 01:
we make it part of our evaluation process to ALWAYS compare an image under consideration to previous IOTD's top pics, etc., prior to promotion to see if the image has brought something new, excellent, or relevant to the community.
OK, I will say that this idea was based on what either another evaluator (or maybe Salvatore, I don't recall as it was over a year ago), had said previously on the forum. Maybe that has changed. Andy's approach may be standard fare for judges. As a reviewer, I can say that I look at every top pick and IOTD that comes down the pike and then some. But I simply don't have time to do a TP/IOTD search for every image that's in my queue every day--there are currently 62 images in my queue. It would require many hours of work to compare all 62 to other TP/IOTDs. But still, I often do that--especially when a target is not that familiar to me or when I know it is, or appears to be, a very difficult target.
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