https://app.astrobin.com/i/kybi79This is my friend Jeff’s fantastic image of the Spaghetti Nebula, the most detailed image of this region anyone has ever shared. It has 250 likes, lots of people commenting this deserves to be IOTD. How is this not an IOTD? I understand it’s subjective but something seems off with the judges if this doesn’t make an IOTD.
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Hi Brian, I hate to be that guy and just point at the FAQ, but here goes: “My image is better than the recent IOTD/TP images, yet it wasn’t awarded. Why?”
Assuming that you did submit your image for IOTD/TP consideration using the Actions menu, or that you have auto-submission enabled in your preferences, you have to consider a few things:
- The IOTD/TP is not a deterministic system, due to the fact that humans are involved. People might overlook an image, or simply not like it as much as you did. Or they might miss a factor that makes it theoretically IOTD/TP worthy due to lack of time.
- There can be only one IOTD per day, by definition, and Top Picks are also limited by the fact that voters have a limited number of votes available each day. The IOTD process can take up to 4 weeks (from publication to selection) so the fact that recent IOTD/TP images are not as good as your image, in your opinion, is no matter, because it doesn’t mean that those were the images “competing” for votes with your image at the same time.
- The IOTD/TP process is a complex one with many variables involved, and the number of great images on AstroBin surpasses the output of the process. However, lowering the bar in order to let more images win an award will also carry the risk of letting some sub-par images thru the cracks, which will undermine the credibility and prestige of the IOTD/TP system.
Jeff's image is amazing, there's no doubt about that, and I just voted Yes on the poll above. But the IOTD queue has just so many really amazing images, and sometimes it's about timing (all slots full, other incredible images in the queue at the same time). There can be only 365 IOTDs in a year and there's way more images with a "IOTD level value".
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Top Pick is a great award. It’s passed two layers of completely blind voting so from a normal awards standpoint it’s done very well!
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This is a brilliant image. I don't think more than 1% of people on this site can achieve something like this. The top pick is well deserved. IOTD? I wish it gets one, but I think there are many other qualified images ending up with not becoming an IOTD. After all, there can only be 365 IOTDs per year, and I think there are way more than 365 great, deserving images per year on this site.
All I can say is, life is short. Stop worrying about IOTD. Enjoy the hobby.
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Zombie topics that, after 7 years of being an AB member I have realized can be counted on to come up consistently  : - Why did image X make IOTD/TP with so many deficiencies? What can the judges/submitters/reviewers be thinking?
- Image Y is wonderful, how did it not make IOTD/TP? What can the judges/submitters/reviewers be thinking?
I do think it is a great image, well worthy of IOTD, but there are so many good images, and so many factors that the judges consider that you cannot guarantee it.
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Without question, a great picture! But I think that's the wrong way to go. If everyone starts to doubt the IOTD system, you might as well stop using the rating system.
Greetings,
Micha
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Salvatore Iovene:
There can be only 365 IOTDs in a year and there's way more images with a "IOTD level value". That is the biggest reason. Basically the bottom line is "so many (great) images, so few days in a year"..... I have only ever had one IOTD but am quite happy with Top Pick......
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Jeffrey’s image is only 2 weeks since posted.
Are you certain it won’t still get an IOTD?
-Anthony
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Anthony Quintile:
Are you certain it won’t still get an IOTD? Yes because it got the Top Pick, and awards are assigned only when they are final.
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Anthony Quintile:
Jeffrey’s image is only 2 weeks since posted.
Are you certain it won’t still get an IOTD?
-Anthony I am also not a fan of this type of thread with a poll which can be taken to be a way of influencing the IOTD process and judges. What if multiple people started posting images with polls questioning why image X or Y did or did not make TP/TPN/IOTD? It would subvert a process that is well established and multiple people over the years have made every effort to be fair and unbiased within the rules and parameters.
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Wow! from my location I don't think I've had 569hrs over the last 3 years. Last two years were terrible for astro.
What dedication on one target!
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I don't think it does, given the current IOTD standards. As my Mom would have said, if you don't have anything positive to say don't say nuthin…
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Salvatore Iovene:
Anthony Quintile:
Are you certain it won’t still get an IOTD?
Yes because it got the Top Pick, and awards are assigned only when they are final. I wasn’t sure because I have seen some images, relatively recently, in both the TP and IOTD feeds. -A
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My comment won't be popular, I think.
There is a great favouritism for images taken with semi-professional or professional rigs somewhere under pitch-black sky for money, while (from my experience) it's nearly boring to process the images. There is no challenge with a gradient related to the LP and SNR is excellent there. The image which we talk about, is made under B8 sky! I commented it that it should be an Image Of The Year and I believe this is what the OP also thinks. I'm not sure if the final quality is the best measurement, without looking at the circumstances and skills. But, it's my opinion, you don't need to agree with me. For me, the author of the image represents a master's overall level. Kudos, Jeffrey! 👌
CS, Martha
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This image is pretty incredible and must've been a lot of work. I personally think it should have won IOTD. But, having spoken to a few IOTD judges, I know that some of them are very careful about the presence of any defects in the image. e.g., poorly corrected CA, overuse of blurx, hallucinated structure, etc. This image does have some weird purple pixels across the field:  It also has some corner stars that have been wrecked by blurx:  Of course, there are many such cases of images with defects that have won IOTD regardless — it's not a perfect system, and you're not guaranteed to get judges who care about these types of defects. But I could see flaws like this being enough for a particularly picky judge to favor another image over this one.
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I have often wondered if there might be a place for some sort of annual awards as well. Maybe for people or groups who have done something special. Those could be lots of different things from new discoveries to particular categories of objects to helpful insights and more.
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There's no doubt an incredible amount of effort went into this image, and overall it's a good image. It's certainly beyond anything I've personally produced. That said, from a technical perspective, I do see some aspects that might have held it back from being selected as IOTD.
At full resolution, there appear to be some issues with noise and possibly with blending or hot pixels. A few stars also seem to show signs of chromatic aberration, but I could be wrong. These are the kinds of details that IOTD judges often zero in on when making final decisions.
While the total integration time is impressive and speaks to real dedication, I don't think that alone gives an automatic edge for IOTD consideration. Some might even argue that after a certain point, the gains from integration times diminish significantly but that's a broader discussion for another time.
None of this is to take away from the image or the achievement. It's an amazing effort, and I admire the work that went into it. I only share this in the spirit of open and respectful critique, even if it means I'm sticking my neck out a bit here.
As others have said, these conversations can get tricky in public forums, but hopefully this is taken in the constructive way it's intended.
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I do appreciate all the comments so far. I voted a big YES and in my comment to Jeff's image I wrote "my BYIOTD…backyard IOTD!" I am appreciative that Salvator increased the number of Top Pick Nominations. I don't know if Top Picks were also increased. This makes sense with the number of members now and the quality of the recent images. With that in mind I'd also like to see a new Backyard IOTD category as the majority of award images are from professional remote dark sites or their purchased data these days. That being said, when I started this hobby 5 years ago, I had a goal to get an IOTD. I now realize that is totally out of reach from my B7 backyard. Oh well…but that doesn't deter or frustrate me in the slightest as the heavens we are imaging are beyond human awards. -john
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Noah Tingey:
This image is pretty incredible and must've been a lot of work. I personally think it should have won IOTD. But, having spoken to a few IOTD judges, I know that some of them are very careful about the presence of any defects in the image. e.g., poorly corrected CA, overuse of blurx, hallucinated structure, etc. This image does have some weird purple pixels across the field:
It also has some corner stars that have been wrecked by blurx:
Of course, there are many such cases of images with defects that have won IOTD regardless — it's not a perfect system, and you're not guaranteed to get judges who care about these types of defects. But I could see flaws like this being enough for a particularly picky judge to favor another image over this one. These are all valid points if the criteria for judging images is purely technical. However, I think if we're pixel peeping to the point where we're letting it detract from outstanding images like Jeff's, then we've lost the point of this hobby. Jeff's image is not just in the same realm as other Spaghetti images, it's A) 2-3x more integration time, B) the Spaghetti itself is far more detailed than any previously published image, and C) the background details have not previously been seen before. It would be one thing if this image was similar to others submitted, but it's not. If we're going to let a few odd stars at 600% zoom get in the way of the visibility this or any great image deserves, then IMO the judging has become too scrutinizing.
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Anthony Quintile:
Salvatore Iovene:
Anthony Quintile:
Are you certain it won’t still get an IOTD?
Yes because it got the Top Pick, and awards are assigned only when they are final.
I wasn’t sure because I have seen some images, relatively recently, in both the TP and IOTD feeds.
-A Yes I't's absolutely true Anthony. I recently saw some images that were Top Picks and then after few days they became IOTD!!
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Salvatore Iovene:
Hi Brian,
I hate to be that guy and just point at the FAQ, but here goes:
“My image is better than the recent IOTD/TP images, yet it wasn’t awarded. Why?”
Assuming that you did submit your image for IOTD/TP consideration using the Actions menu, or that you have auto-submission enabled in your preferences, you have to consider a few things:
- The IOTD/TP is not a deterministic system, due to the fact that humans are involved. People might overlook an image, or simply not like it as much as you did. Or they might miss a factor that makes it theoretically IOTD/TP worthy due to lack of time.
- There can be only one IOTD per day, by definition, and Top Picks are also limited by the fact that voters have a limited number of votes available each day. The IOTD process can take up to 4 weeks (from publication to selection) so the fact that recent IOTD/TP images are not as good as your image, in your opinion, is no matter, because it doesn’t mean that those were the images “competing” for votes with your image at the same time.
- The IOTD/TP process is a complex one with many variables involved, and the number of great images on AstroBin surpasses the output of the process. However, lowering the bar in order to let more images win an award will also carry the risk of letting some sub-par images thru the cracks, which will undermine the credibility and prestige of the IOTD/TP system.
Jeff's image is amazing, there's no doubt about that, and I just voted Yes on the poll above. But the IOTD queue has just so many really amazing images, and sometimes it's about timing (all slots full, other incredible images in the queue at the same time).
There can be only 365 IOTDs in a year and there's way more images with a "IOTD level value". Thanks Salvatore for your response. Of course, I do understand and agree with all of these FAQ points, and I have read these many times. I just personally feel it is deserving of IOTD regardless of all of these points — this image clearly stands out as more detailed than others. If it were a notable imager who often gets IOTDs who posted this, it would have probably been awarded an IOTD no problem. In the past 365 days, only 208 of the IOTDs were unique users. That means ~43% of IOTDs are from users who have been awarded multiple IOTDs in the past year. Now I'm sure many of those are well deserved, but 43% is a lot. That's almost half. As someone who doesn't pay attention to these types of stats, I have to question the influence of nepotism among the judges at 43%. As you said in the FAQs, humans are involved, which means inherently the judging will be flawed. I'll propose something that I'm sure has been brought up a hundred times before — why not open the IOTD / Top Pick voting to the masses? If the system is inherently flawed, why should we limit it to only 20 reviewers / 8 judges to make a final call? Let the popular vote or a larger group decide. The current system is not democratic enough and clearly there is some nepotism involved. The data doesn't lie.
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Brian Fulda:
Salvatore Iovene:
Hi Brian,
I hate to be that guy and just point at the FAQ, but here goes:
“My image is better than the recent IOTD/TP images, yet it wasn’t awarded. Why?”
Assuming that you did submit your image for IOTD/TP consideration using the Actions menu, or that you have auto-submission enabled in your preferences, you have to consider a few things:
- The IOTD/TP is not a deterministic system, due to the fact that humans are involved. People might overlook an image, or simply not like it as much as you did. Or they might miss a factor that makes it theoretically IOTD/TP worthy due to lack of time.
- There can be only one IOTD per day, by definition, and Top Picks are also limited by the fact that voters have a limited number of votes available each day. The IOTD process can take up to 4 weeks (from publication to selection) so the fact that recent IOTD/TP images are not as good as your image, in your opinion, is no matter, because it doesn’t mean that those were the images “competing” for votes with your image at the same time.
- The IOTD/TP process is a complex one with many variables involved, and the number of great images on AstroBin surpasses the output of the process. However, lowering the bar in order to let more images win an award will also carry the risk of letting some sub-par images thru the cracks, which will undermine the credibility and prestige of the IOTD/TP system.
Jeff's image is amazing, there's no doubt about that, and I just voted Yes on the poll above. But the IOTD queue has just so many really amazing images, and sometimes it's about timing (all slots full, other incredible images in the queue at the same time).
There can be only 365 IOTDs in a year and there's way more images with a "IOTD level value".
Thanks Salvatore for your response. Of course, I do understand and agree with all of these FAQ points, and I have read these many times. I just personally feel it is deserving of IOTD regardless of all of these points — this image clearly stands out as more detailed than others.
If it were a notable imager who often gets IOTDs who posted this, it would have probably been awarded an IOTD no problem.
In the past 365 days, only 208 of the IOTDs were unique users. That means ~43% of IOTDs are from users who have been awarded multiple IOTDs in the past year. Now I'm sure many of those are well deserved, but 43% is a lot. That's almost half. As someone who doesn't pay attention to these types of stats, I have to question the influence of nepotism among the judges at 43%. As you said in the FAQs, humans are involved, which means inherently the judging will be flawed.
I'll propose something that I'm sure has been brought up a hundred times before — why not open the IOTD / Top Pick voting to the masses? If the system is inherently flawed, why should we limit it to only 20 reviewers / 8 judges to make a final call? Let the popular vote decide. The current system is not democratic enough and clearly there is some nepotism involved. The data doesn't lie. What I really get baffled by is why the first two layers of voting are completely blind and the last one is not. That’s just crazy to me.
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Noah Tingey:
It also has some corner stars that have been wrecked by blurx: You have to be very careful with these types of judgments. These things could be real--a small, faraway PN or a tiny (from our vantage) reflection region. At this length of integration time, both things are quite possible--and over the breadth of this field and given it's location, almost inevitable. As for the noise in the background, I find that you just can't please everyone. The presence, amount, and character of noise that is deemed proper is all over the board and as best I can tell, there's zero consensus on it. In the end, for me, the best way to judge an image is by looking at what the photographer intended--the whole field. In this case, Jeff's image knocked my socks off. I hope he'll keep submitting it various outlets and contests. People need to see it.
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Arun H:
Anthony Quintile:
Jeffrey’s image is only 2 weeks since posted.
Are you certain it won’t still get an IOTD?
-Anthony
I am also not a fan of this type of thread with a poll which can be taken to be a way of influencing the IOTD process and judges.
What if multiple people started posting images with polls questioning why image X or Y did or did not make TP/TPN/IOTD? It would subvert a process that is well established and multiple people over the years have made every effort to be fair and unbiased within the rules and parameters. Interestingly, you just described exactly why this process is inherently biased / involves favoritism. Because the judging/reviewing panel is so small, bias and favoritism are naturally more prevalent throughout the submission process. Opening up the judging to a larger group would reduce this. It can never be entirely eliminated, but 20 reviewers / 8 judges making these final decisions is far too few for a community with tens of thousands of users. 43% of IOTDs in the past year have come from repeat users. That number is far too high for there not to be a lot of favoritism going on.
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Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Brian Fulda:
Salvatore Iovene:
Hi Brian,
I hate to be that guy and just point at the FAQ, but here goes:
“My image is better than the recent IOTD/TP images, yet it wasn’t awarded. Why?”
Assuming that you did submit your image for IOTD/TP consideration using the Actions menu, or that you have auto-submission enabled in your preferences, you have to consider a few things:
- The IOTD/TP is not a deterministic system, due to the fact that humans are involved. People might overlook an image, or simply not like it as much as you did. Or they might miss a factor that makes it theoretically IOTD/TP worthy due to lack of time.
- There can be only one IOTD per day, by definition, and Top Picks are also limited by the fact that voters have a limited number of votes available each day. The IOTD process can take up to 4 weeks (from publication to selection) so the fact that recent IOTD/TP images are not as good as your image, in your opinion, is no matter, because it doesn’t mean that those were the images “competing” for votes with your image at the same time.
- The IOTD/TP process is a complex one with many variables involved, and the number of great images on AstroBin surpasses the output of the process. However, lowering the bar in order to let more images win an award will also carry the risk of letting some sub-par images thru the cracks, which will undermine the credibility and prestige of the IOTD/TP system.
Jeff's image is amazing, there's no doubt about that, and I just voted Yes on the poll above. But the IOTD queue has just so many really amazing images, and sometimes it's about timing (all slots full, other incredible images in the queue at the same time).
There can be only 365 IOTDs in a year and there's way more images with a "IOTD level value".
Thanks Salvatore for your response. Of course, I do understand and agree with all of these FAQ points, and I have read these many times. I just personally feel it is deserving of IOTD regardless of all of these points — this image clearly stands out as more detailed than others.
If it were a notable imager who often gets IOTDs who posted this, it would have probably been awarded an IOTD no problem.
In the past 365 days, only 208 of the IOTDs were unique users. That means ~43% of IOTDs are from users who have been awarded multiple IOTDs in the past year. Now I'm sure many of those are well deserved, but 43% is a lot. That's almost half. As someone who doesn't pay attention to these types of stats, I have to question the influence of nepotism among the judges at 43%. As you said in the FAQs, humans are involved, which means inherently the judging will be flawed.
I'll propose something that I'm sure has been brought up a hundred times before — why not open the IOTD / Top Pick voting to the masses? If the system is inherently flawed, why should we limit it to only 20 reviewers / 8 judges to make a final call? Let the popular vote decide. The current system is not democratic enough and clearly there is some nepotism involved. The data doesn't lie.
What I really get baffled by is why the first two layers of voting are completely blind and the last one is not. That’s just crazy to me. Right!
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