Mauricio Christiano de Souza:
I tend to agree the community has a bad habit of only supporting everything blindly. I see way too many images with excessive noise, terrible colors, excessive noise reduction and AI, etc, etc, getting praised for absolutely no reason. I really wonder if it is because people don't notice the difference in processing techniques between a fine image and a deep fry, or if it is some kind of mutual ego inflation. Hi Mauricio - thank you for a very thoughtful and engaging comment. I do agree that there is generally poor correlation between some objective quality of an image and the number of likes or comments. But that can be explained by understanding that Astrobin is as much a social media platform as it is an image sharing platform. On the other hand, I see little problem with people soliciting likes or comments. In the end, this is a lonely hobby, and so what if people want a forum to get positive affirmation for the work they put in and the results they achieve? Who am I or anyone else to judge that it should not be this way? I do agree that people are not really looking for constructive crtitique for their images, but simply affirmation. Evidence of this is how infrequently the RCC feature is used. On the other hand, with RCC, you have no control over who responds to your request. The response may be from someone whose opinion you really do not care about. A better option would be to request an honest opinion about your image from imagers whose work you respect via private conversation. In any event, a "Dislike" button would be highly counterproductive, like taking an axe to a problem solved using a scalpel. As you pointed out, even this conversation provides evidence that a "Dislike" button is an open invitation for abuse. And there are many conversations I have participated in on this forum that have gotten very heated, abusive, and personal, including a recent one that got so bad that it had to be actually permanently deleted. We have to accept that all of us are normal human beings subject to the same stresses, impulses, and base emotions as every other human, and not somehow a segment of the population above everyone else. A "Dislike" button on AB would be abused just as much as one on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or Amazon.
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Kv54,
If you don't like something, don't comment on it. Or, if you do dislike an image, provide constructive criticism as to why. Perhaps someone can improve their skills based on your input. Be encouraging, not discouraging.
Patrick
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Arun H:
Mauricio Christiano de Souza:
I tend to agree the community has a bad habit of only supporting everything blindly. I see way too many images with excessive noise, terrible colors, excessive noise reduction and AI, etc, etc, getting praised for absolutely no reason. I really wonder if it is because people don't notice the difference in processing techniques between a fine image and a deep fry, or if it is some kind of mutual ego inflation.
Hi Mauricio - thank you for a very thoughtful and engaging comment. I do agree that there is generally poor correlation between some objective quality of an image and the number of likes or comments. But that can be explained by understanding that Astrobin is as much a social media platform as it is an image sharing platform. On the other hand, I see little problem with people soliciting likes or comments. In the end, this is a lonely hobby, and so what if people want a forum to get positive affirmation for the work they put in and the results they achieve? Who am I or anyone else to judge that it should not be this way?
I do agree that people are not really looking for constructive crtitique for their images, but simply affirmation. Evidence of this is how infrequently the RCC feature is used. On the other hand, with RCC, you have no control over who responds to your request. The response may be from someone whose opinion you really do not care about. A better option would be to request an honest opinion about your image from imagers whose work you respect via private conversation.
In any event, a "Dislike" button would be highly counterproductive, like taking an axe to a problem solved using a scalpel. As you pointed out, even this conversation provides evidence that a "Dislike" button is an open invitation for abuse. And there are many conversations I have participated in on this forum that have gotten very heated, abusive, and personal, including a recent one that got so bad that it had to be actually permanently deleted. We have to accept that all of us are normal human beings subject to the same stresses, impulses, and base emotions as every other human, and not somehow a segment of the population above everyone else. A "Dislike" button on AB would be abused just as much as one on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or Amazon. I totally agree with you Arun! As you put into wise words in your reading: 'Astrobin is as much a social media platform as it is an image sharing platform.', I see why sometimes people (and even I) get frustated over 'bad' images with many likes. That is just a result of not considering the fact this is a social media and there is not necessarily coherence or a logical reason behind all the likes. Likes (and therefor dislikes) is a kind of a meaningless metrics and doesn't adress all the nuances of why we like or dislike something. For example, the like of your favorite image ever equals the same to the like of an image you barely consider decent. To wrap my considerations, I think the dislike idea is bad. However, I want to believe it is possible that we find a way to adress this and make everyone improve their images together. This needs to be well planned though, we are living crazy times in which people fight on the internet over nothing.
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Well, there’s always the nuclear option. Probably a bit extreme for just not liking someone’s photos however.  |
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Hello!
I don't think a dislike button is necessary. I either like a picture and press the Like button, or I keep scrolling. If you don't like the picture, you could also write that in a friendly comment….
And don't be angry with me, but the likes thing is completely overrated. I often see that the likes correlate with the number of followers, regardless of the quality of the image. The motto is “if you like mine, I'll like yours”. In true social media style.
Best regards,
Micha
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As a new(er) imager, I have found it quite easy to fall in love with my own work. Then a few months later look at the same image and ask myself “what was I thinking?”
Likes (or more accurately Like Percentage) is a much better barometer for how am I doing. For low percentages I know that:
a) My target/composition was not popular; or
b) My data was poor; or
c) My processing was poor.
Maybe sometime all three;-)
In any event, a low Like percentage is informative and can’t be used in a malicious or vindictive manner.
Being “more like CloudyNights” is something I hope Salvatore resists strenuously.
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I believe I've been here since the very beginning, and I never once felt a need to dislike an image. I feel really sorry for anyone who feels an urgency to dislike an astrophoto.
It is clear that this would be exploited by large groups of haters to discourage and bully others, leading many people to start fighting instead of being productive, and eventually leading some to leave Astrobin, even the hobby. So I'm having difficulty believing that this is a genuine constructive opinion, I'm sorry.
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Kay Ogetay:
I believe I've been here since the very beginning, and I never once felt a need to dislike an image. I feel really sorry for anyone who feels an urgency to dislike an astrophoto.
It is clear that this would be exploited by large groups of haters to discourage and bully others, leading many people to start fighting instead of being productive, and eventually leading some to leave Astrobin, even the hobby. So I'm having difficulty believing that this is a genuine constructive opinion, I'm sorry. Don’t apologize for speaking the truth. This is a bad idea.
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Kay Ogetay:
I believe I've been here since the very beginning, and I never once felt a need to dislike an image. I feel really sorry for anyone who feels an urgency to dislike an astrophoto. I couldn't agree more. Every astro image has value. It's a miracle any of us can do this at all. We need more people doing it, not fewer--because one thing this world could really use right now is every dose of reality it can get. We provide that in at least a small way. It's a good thing to strive for, encourage, and support excellence in any endeavor. To that end, I've found that the best way to give or receive constructive feedback here is through kind, respectful private messaging. It has been invaluable to me. None of us are making money at this--quite the contrary. We all sink copious amounts of time and treasure into it, and all we get in return is the pleasure of seeing an ethereal stream of bits turn into a colorful image of something we would never otherwise see. That pleasure is further enhanced by a collegial, positive atmosphere. At least, that's largely been my experience on Astrobin. If that changes, I'm out. I'm getting old and I don't know how many more trips I'll take around the sun. I don't want to spend any of my remaining time dealing with negativity. If I want that, I can turn on the news.
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Mauricio Christiano de Souza:
However, I want to believe it is possible that we find a way to adress this and make everyone improve their images together. This needs to be well planned though, we are living crazy times in which people fight on the internet over nothing. Quite true. That got me to thinking if there might be some way to incorporate some of the more common objections to an image's quality in a sort of "critical suggestions checklist" that a viewer could use to rate an image. Some common image problems are, for example: 1) Excessive noise 2) Inaccurate color (for RGB and LRGB) 3) Inadequate exposure times 4) Poor tracking and/or focus 5) Overcooked processing (often "wormy" AI) So rather than a like or dislike, there could be a radio button checklist of possible issues that members/viewers could submit for any image and these would be aggregated (not identified as to who rated them). That would give the imager a readout of what others as a group thought the specific issues with an image might be but without creating any personal conflicts since that data would be anonymized. The idea would be to help the imager fix issues by identifying them, not to just diss the image. Just a thought.
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Bill McLaughlin:
Quite true. That got me to thinking if there might be some way to incorporate some of the more common objections to an image's quality in a sort of "critical suggestions checklist" that a viewer could use to rate an image. Some common image problems are, for example:
1) Excessive noise
2) Inaccurate color (for RGB and LRGB)
3) Inadequate exposure times
4) Poor tracking and/or focus
5) Overcooked processing (often "wormy" AI) Hi Bill - these are great suggestions. If I might add - these should be voluntary, that is, the imager should choose to enable them. Otherwise, it is just a disguised "Dislike" button. More ideally, it could be in the form of a request for feedback that the imager could send to specific people.
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Arun H:
If I might add - these should be voluntary, that is, the imager should choose to enable them. Otherwise, it is just a disguised "Dislike" button. More ideally, it could be in the form of a request for feedback that the imager could send to specific people. Agreed! It should be up to the image poster to enable or disable such a feature both at the site level and at the individual image level. Like any opinion it could be abused so should be under the image poster's control to a large degree.
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Hi all,
After the discussion, it's clear that no one wants a dislike button. And it will probably never be introduced to prevent images from being systematically downgraded. What's also become clear is that likes essentially say nothing about image quality.
The discussion about constructive, well-intentioned criticism is, in my opinion, hypocritical, since no one wants to be publicly criticized.
But one could assume that those opposed to a dislike button are afraid that their results will ultimately be correctly evaluated, regardless of their number of followers. A not unreasonable thought in my opinion…
Nevertheless, everything will probably stay as it is. I am quite sure…
Clear Skies and open minds,
Klaus
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The discussion about constructive, well-intentioned criticism is, in my opinion, hypocritical, since no one wants to be publicly criticized. I think that's misguided. There's often a need for public criticism--namely, when an issue affects other people (like this particular thread). I've done that myself on here (e.g., the Planewave Delta-T is another example). But we're not selling anything here--at least the vast majority of us aren't. There are no buyers for our products who will be hurt by spending hard-earned cash on an inferior or mislabeled product. Any awards we get here would need to be accompanied by a crisp new $10 bill in order to buy a cup of coffee. Public humiliation in that circumstance is completely unnecessary and counterproductive. Private, constructive criticism is an entirely different thing. If I'm sitting at a restaurant with my wife and, unbeknownst to me, there's a sliver of green bean stuck between my front teeth, the last thing I would expect is for her to stand up and announce it to the room. Yet I would greatly appreciate it if she informed me of it discreetly. But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.
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The discussion about constructive, well-intentioned criticism is, in my opinion, hypocritical, since no one wants to be publicly criticized. Not sure why anyone should be publicly criticized just to satisfy someone else's desire for improvement, well intentioned or otherwise. Each of us that image here have different expectations for what we want to get out of this, different time commitments, and different constraints under which we image. Many of us may well be satisfied with what we are doing - regardless of what others think of our work. Uncontrolled exposure to unsolicited criticism will lead to toxicity. There is plenty of that without adding more. Improvements in ways to get critique - to the extent that one is interested in improvement or not satisfied with one's own work in one's own eyes - is a topic worthy of discussion.
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I think image criticism should come on request and people already ask for it by posting RCCs in the forum. I wouldn't want anyone to tell me my images have to much noise or don't have the right colors. Astrophotography is art before anything else, the colors we choose, the level of noise we leave, how much we crank up saturation, these are the ways by which we express our own creativity and I think people should only get critics on their work if they request it.
I never liked Salvator Dali's work but I would never think for 1 second of telling him he made some mistakes.
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Arun H:
Each of us that image here have different expectations for what we want to get out of this, different time commitments, and different constraints under which we image. Many of us may well be satisfied with what we are doing - regardless of what others think of our work. That is very well said and this important point is somehow often forgotten. And I'll quote from Astrobin's FAQ: # I've seen beautiful images on AstroBin. I'm not worthy of posting mine! Nonsense. AstroBin has not been made to showcase beautiful images, but to give everybody an opportunity to contribute to a vast and ever-growing effort of centralization and indexing of important data. That 30-minute picture of M31 you took last night between the clouds belongs here! Don't be shy and post it! I think that says it all
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Eric Gagne:
I think image criticism should come on request and people already ask for it by posting RCCs in the forum. I wouldn't want anyone to tell me my images have to much noise or don't have the right colors. Astrophotography is art before anything else, the colors we choose, the level of noise we leave, how much we crank up saturation, these are the ways by which we express our own creativity and I think people should only get critics on their work if they request it.
I never liked Salvator Dali's work but I would never think for 1 second of telling him he made some mistakes. Well said Eric. I was going to reply about my opinion that there are sufficient avenues to ask for concrete, positive critique here on AB already. Bill McLaughlin:
Mauricio Christiano de Souza:
However, I want to believe it is possible that we find a way to adress this and make everyone improve their images together. This needs to be well planned though, we are living crazy times in which people fight on the internet over nothing.
Quite true. That got me to thinking if there might be some way to incorporate some of the more common objections to an image's quality in a sort of "critical suggestions checklist" that a viewer could use to rate an image. Some common image problems are, for example:
1) Excessive noise
2) Inaccurate color (for RGB and LRGB)
3) Inadequate exposure times
4) Poor tracking and/or focus
5) Overcooked processing (often "wormy" AI)
So rather than a like or dislike, there could be a radio button checklist of possible issues that members/viewers could submit for any image and these would be aggregated (not identified as to who rated them). That would give the imager a readout of what others as a group thought the specific issues with an image might be but without creating any personal conflicts since that data would be anonymized.
The idea would be to help the imager fix issues by identifying them, not to just diss the image.
Just a thought. Bill and @Arun H, I have no doubt that AstroBin could pretty easily enable such feedback feature as you propose here. As I suggest in my response to Eric, I think it is really unnecessary. The OP of this thread did not seem to have in mind what you are proposing, or at least he did not state it that way, and I think your solution to the responses here are a solution without a problem wanting to be fixed. Yes a couple here have raised the issue, but this thread is really not that heavily "attended" and I am pretty sure that such a service would not get all that much used. Your suggestion might be better served as a stand alone forum question where it might get more notice. That and an included poll might offer at least some feedback as to interest. I think Eric's and others' statements about the use of RCCs is key. RCCs can be well done, and deeper in meaning because anyone responding will want to put at least a little effort in helping out. There also being an opportunity for back and forth, which is far more useful to the one who posts the RCC than quick responses. Yes, wonton negative responses via RCCs are possible, but rare and easy to ignore, or get trounced by the well-meaning respondees. An RCC also asks a bit of effort from the OPer and thereby limits how much they use that service. I think this is helpful. For some newbies, I fear a simple radio button approach might cause some to use these as a crutch. And that could be actually unhelpful or even unhealthy for a newbie. It is why I do not even participate in the that certain contest, who shall not be named here. I found as a newbie, that surprized recognitions of my images actually put pressure on how I viewed and even processed my images. I did not know back then that I could even opt out. This being unwanted, once I heard I could choose to not participate, I did so and have never looked back. I now feel free to do what I want, how I want to. For me, I am one who is in this as a hobbyist. I strive to improve on certain aspects of data collection and processing, but very much limit myself to certain areas of "discovery". Some of these are to improve my processing skills, but again, these are very specific and I generally do not seek help in an attempt to perfect my "art". However, I am happy to receive critique at any time through comments on my images. When that happens, I understand and agree with some. Others, I feel miss the point, but I am happy because this helps me understand "how" different people see things differently, including differently than I. After starting out not that many years ago in this business, I am now astonished at how many of the hundreds of features of PI I do not actually apply to my images. In fact, I am using less and less of these features, to less and less degrees as I go forward. And I like it that way! Eric's second point about art is also key. Because of this, I often find myself Liking images without being too critical. Often I do so taking into account what I know about the person, their level of expertise, etc. But also, I know some of these people who are posting are moving on in years, and their faculties are such that they have barriers to produce images at the highest level, or at a level they once were able to. I can like an image just because I like it! It does not have to be technically superior, or technically free of flaws. If I find something special about an image, I will say so in the comment for that image. Best, Alan
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my 50 cents
For me, all images are beautiful and all have value. When I see someone (unlike) in this hobby, I'd like to ask you the reasons after seeing your images.
And always remember, don't forget to look at the stars.
CS
Brian
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Astrophotography is a hobby. Its not the school of hard knocks. Its not a contest or competition.
Folks that want constructive criticism ask for it and get it.
Consider that some people are struggling in life, sometimes with mental illness. For any such people that are here, astrophotography could very well be an outlet for them, a respite from the daily challenges they face in life.
I have personally witnessed how an indiscriminate rude comment from a stranger could crush someone and take days to recover.
So while I can understand and even agree that for growth, objective and constructive criticism is a good thing, in this environment it would introduce an element of negativity here.
As I said, this is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. Anyone that aspires to develop top shelf skills is not going to held back by a lack of a thumbs down option.
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When I first joined Astrobin one of the things I found very attractive (and still do) is the willingness of people to share their experience ask and give suggestions and help create a community that is more cooperative than competitive. Of course most of us have a competitive side but it's certainly not the part of myself I value the most, in fact many times in life it has gotten in my way.
I've been posting on music forums for a long time as that's my profession. One of the first things I noticed is the spirit of the astrophotography community is quite different than music forums. On those forums, people (usually non-professionals who want to become professional or want to be more recognized than they are) are always eager to offer "criticism" whether it's asked for or not. It's not a community I would call generous. Sure there are exceptions, but overall it's filled with a lot of people who feel entitled to tell others what's wrong with their music, as if they themselves know the answer to that question. People pay me to teach and I know the difference between constructive, insightful criticism and thoughtless, subjective criticism that might be honest, but isn't helpful.
If I were the OP, I'd try and be honest with myself and ask why do I want a "dislike" button? To tell someone you are not pleased with their work? To make a person feel like their efforts are useless? Even if your motives are decent, why should someone pay attention to your negative opinion?
This world is not an easy place to evolve and grow in. The challenges of everyday life are formidable, even if one is lucky enough to have received a good education, has enough money, lives in a city that isn't being bombed, has close relationships with family, friends and is fortunate to have a loving, intimate partner. People who take themselves too seriously usually bore me. If I see what I think is a crappy astrophotograph (and I think some of mine are crappy) why should I say anything? I'm not considering hiring that person, and if I am not considering collaborating, what is my negative opinion good for, other than than to make myself feel bigger, better, more important than he or she is?
A dislike button is totally unnecessary and usually does more harm than good. If you teach astrophotography, then sure, there's a place for sympathetic, insightful criticism. Otherwise, no.
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Arun H:
The discussion about constructive, well-intentioned criticism is, in my opinion, hypocritical, since no one wants to be publicly criticized.
Not sure why anyone should be publicly criticized just to satisfy someone else's desire for improvement, well intentioned or otherwise.
Each of us that image here have different expectations for what we want to get out of this, different time commitments, and different constraints under which we image. Many of us may well be satisfied with what we are doing - regardless of what others think of our work.
Uncontrolled exposure to unsolicited criticism will lead to toxicity. There is plenty of that without adding more.
Improvements in ways to get critique - to the extent that one is interested in improvement or not satisfied with one's own work in one's own eyes - is a topic worthy of discussion. Very true. Where I live I rarely can expect more than a handful of imaging nights per month. Over the winter, I had a three month stretch where I couldn’t image at all. So when I do get clear skies, I image whether or not the seeing is terrible or the moon is blazing away.
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Here’s a question for the OP ….
What’s wrong with just scrolling on past images you don’t like and giving praise to those you do??
If I don’t like something then I won’t hit a like button but if I like it I’ll give it a like and if for me it really stands out then I’ll even make a comment!!
What’s wrong with using your own judgement and just scrolling on past images you don’t like?? Seems easier that way!! Those that chase likes and views IMO are not my thing, I post my images like everyone else and if even one person genuinely likes my content then sweet as that enough for me!!
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Also, I’m not sure which Instagram you use but it doesn’t have a dislike button?? YouTube does as mentioned, same with TikTok but I believe this is more so the platform knows what kind of videos to display
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I dont see the reason for adding a dislike button. However, disclosing the viewers of the posts would be beneficial. A viewer not liking a post = to dislike. But in any case for me astrobin is both a nice backup library and a self expression. Cheers and clear skies to all with or without a dislike  |
You cannot like this item. Reason: "ANONYMOUS".
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