This image https://www.astrobin.com/xkkblg/was rejected by the submitters. Only 4 times present on astrobin, how can this be rejected? Are there only fools in the IOTD submitters? Or only artists? It is ridiculous, this socalled process! I want an explanation for the rejection! BR Klaus
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Hi Klaus,
Well, I'm not a member of the jury, and there are certainly weak points in the process. But just because an object has rarely been photographed does not mean that
1. it will advance in the IOTD process because of that
2. that it is a (technically) good image
And when I look at your picture, it's probably just not good enough from a technical point of view. Your background, for example, is not uniform and has artifacts from the editing. If I remember correctly, a certain image quality is also necessary to progress in the IOTD process.
CS Konrad
And personal commentary:
The comments you wrote under your picture don't make it any better now. I understand if you are frustrated by the process, but the criticism you are making is ridiculous. The pictures are judged anonymously and I think people who generally have a lot of experience and take good pictures make it onto the jury for that very reason.
So it's not that they rate each other particularly positively, but that it's precisely people who take good pictures and have a lot of experience who sit on the jury.
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yeah, it's pretty bad, technically speaking… Still, it's rather unpolite to reject it out of hand.
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Do you think that because the target is rare, that it deserves to be promoted simply on that basis?
What do you think this image brings to the table?
The image presented does not appeal to me at all. The general lack of signal, lack of dynamics, and just generally 'boring' presentation does not help.
Your attitude expressed in your own comments on the image give me no sympathy for you at all. Instead of complaining, you could have simply asked, "What can I do to improve this image?"
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Please note: images that are selected as IOTD/TP should, in principle, display excellence in some form (be it acquisition, processing, or another part of the process). Occasionally, there might be exceptions: it is sometimes possible to trade some technical excellence for some other qualities (such as originality, composition, special events or conditions). However, even in those cases, IOTD/TP images should have a high standard of technical quality. This is at the start of the IOTD/TP compendium. As a start, I would recommend cropping out the stacking artifacts.
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I want an explanation for the rejection! Fair enough: - The background has very poor noise control and colour balance. It also seems like the calibration failed to do its job considering all the splotches of colour, and there is a discernible pattern in the background that I think came from calibration failures.
- In general, it just looks like the image was barely processed. Now, I know that is not the case based on your image description, but that is how it comes across. Of course, we do not see the images descriptions in our judging queue, so if I didn't know any better I would of assumed that you just stacked the image, stretched it quickly, cropped it, and uploaded it.
- Speaking of cropping, I can see that around 3 edges of the image there are remnants of stacking, so the image was not cropped properly.
If I had to guess why it was rejected, I would assume it was the stacking artifacts around the edges, or the appearance of poor SNR. If you want, you can compare your version with this one: https://www.astrobin.com/andkxi/ |
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I want an explanation for the rejection! There are several technical errors with this image. It is unclear whether this image was dismissed or simply didnt make it through the process. Images that have many technical errors are often dismissed as to not clog up the rest of the queue. If it was just not promoted, this is normal. Most images submitted to the IOTD process dont make it past the first round of judging anyway. Here are a list of the errors obviously present in the image: - Stacking artifacts along the edge - Excessive noise - Medium scale mottling in the background - Clipping highlights, especially in the galaxy near the left side of the PN Here are a full list of guidelines if you are interested.
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Hi all,
thanks for your quick reply and your critics.
As I am interested in the faintest detail in my image, I will always stretch my result to the max.
I understand that the jury prefers clean and perfect pictures. This is obviously not my approach.
My recommendation to the IOTD judges is to highlight rarely imaged objects, regardless of socalled "technical" issues!
Otherwise you will be finally called the Iris-Nebula-Gremium.
BR,
Klaus
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My recommendation to the IOTD judges is to highlight rarely imaged objects, regardless of socalled "technical" issues! Conversely, as a submitter myself, I would recommend that in your pursuit of imaging rare objects, you strive to resolve the clear technical issues rather than hope that the judges will ignore them. It is expressed very clearly in the guidelines what you should and should not do, we follow those guidelines in addition to our own subjective value of the image. You will notice that rare objects already often receive more recognition than other images of similar quality. Charlie
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Just because the target is rare does not automatically make this image objectively ”good”.
just my 2 cents
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Hi all,
thanks for all the comments.
My conclusion is:
No, I will not follow the guidelines of the IOTD, because they do not make sense at all, when imaging faint objects.
I learn the following:
As long as the IOTD participants do not disclose:
1. Raw data
2. Full Image processing process
I cannot take them seriously.
And then the competition ends, because it is ridiculous!
BR,
Klaus
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Would also like to point out that if your goals are different from the IOTD guidelines/goals there is no requirement you submit images to the judging process.
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I would like to point out, that I disagree with the IOTD guidelines and I think they should be changed. No guideline is forever.
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Unfortunately for you you can disagree all you want but you are not the owner of this site and thus you won't make any rule. Besides the fact the we all image faint objects, sometimes exceedingly faint one and those rules apply to us all and I have yet of one complaining about them. Except you.
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Rules can be changed by pressure of paying customers. No payment, no revenue for the owner!
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You're free to be upset with the IOTD process, just as submitters, reviewers, and judges are free to reject an image if they feel it doesn’t meet the mark - whether that's technical, artistic, or otherwise.
I respect efforts to showcase lesser-known targets, but obscurity doesn’t automatically make an image worthy of recognition. I found six versions of this object on Astrobin, and a few were nominated for Top Pick. One in particular has no award at all, and frankly, I think it's better than all the rest - including yours - in every meaningful way.
This process isn’t perfect, but calling the people behind it “fools” because you didn’t get the outcome you wanted says more about your attitude than the system.
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Are you all sure that this is not indeed a joke of some kind?
I mean who would enter an image like that for IOTD that looks like there was minimum effort…
I think he is kidding…
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Hi all,
I just quit my astrobin membership. Wish you all clear skies.
Klaus
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andrea tasselli:
yeah, it's pretty bad, technically speaking... Still, it's rather unpolite to reject it out of hand. Submitters do have the ability to "reject" an image. My recollection is that that was put in place because we had poor quality images making TP or TPN based on just single sections by submitters or reviewers. So to guard against that, the facility was put in place to allow submitters to "reject" obviously bad images. A single submitter rejection does not push the image out of the queue, multiple submitters have to reject for that to happen. I am certainly not surprised that this image was rejected given all the issues that were pointed out in this thread. I do not see it as being impolite, rather just guarding the integrity of the process. I certainly appreciated several of the people that are part of the IOTD staff patiently and politely pointing out the issues with the image, and it is very unfortunate that the OP chose to quit rather than take the time to understand and learn.
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Ok, what I learn is to image Iris Nebula 65h and hope to win the price…
The jury does not understand the difficulty to generate results with a limited exposure time. Every fool can produce such an image with dozens of hours of exposure time, but who dares to publish it after 10 hours per channel?
P.S.
I will not quit, but rather publish my images elsewhere.
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Looks like @kv54 made their point and people answered the question (why the image was dismissed). As I see some name-calling being thrown around and it doesn't look like this is constructive, at this point, I think it's wisest to end this discussion. For any other complaints and suggestions, feel free to reach out using the Support entry in the Help menu above. Thanks everybody for contributing! Salvatore
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Hi Salvatore,
thanks for your reply. Why did you involve in this discussion?
Are you interested in my image or just sad that you lost a customer?
BTW: Wish you much success hosting photoshop-cleaned and perfect images. That's not my goal.
Best Regards,
Klaus
P.S. How do you know that the winners of IOTD did not cheat?
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As long as the IOTD participants do not disclose:
1. Raw data
2. Full Image processing process
I cannot take them seriously. although I really don't like the OP's image, I think this part is actually true you guys can't just ignore the facts: images are from a post from Charles Hagen, page 4 https://www.astrobin.com/forum/c/astrophotography/deep-sky-processing-techniques/any-secret-nr-methods-topaz-denoise-what-is-your-method/?page=4these images are from different IOTDs (all of them I believe, but one might be a TP) detail just magically appears and disappears in some areas   At this point, unless IOTD winners (especially the Bray gang) give a detailed explanation on how they did their denoising and deconvolution, or at least show what a raw Master looks like, I see absolutely no value in their IOTDs and will never like or comment on them, because there is no value I know color will always differ, but detail shouldn't, at least this much just because a person did astro for 10 or 20 years, or since they were born, doesn't mean you can trust them to judge you; the horrid examples shown above proves this (remember, they were chosen for IOTD... the judges are no gods and I see no meaning in their judgement, unless someone assures me IOTD is purely for showcasing art) I vote for the removal of IOTD; it causes mayhem and competition (whether you want to believe it or not), and has no real benefit other than to please a certain small group of people and get a digital award if you pleased them good enough; moreover, the judges can finally cut down on the screen time and tend to their families more just my perspective
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I am a submitter and I do agree with my fellow submitters analysis of the image and their feedback. I do believe in the published guidelines and the process that has been well thought out and evolved over time to improve the IOTD process, and I do believe improvements will continue over time too.
Rarely imaged targets are indeed appealing and worthy of attention but I agree with the others on image meeting guidelines regardless of rarity.
(edit) Ah I posted this before I saw Salvatore's message, apologies, I can delete this if you prefer too.
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