External focuser respecting the rear flange to sensor distance mentioned by Celestron ??? Celestron EdgeHD 8" · Paulo de Almeida · ... · 14 · 244 · 0

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What am I missing here? 

The EdgeHD has two field flattening lenses installed in the baffle tube to further correct aberrations and ensure a flat field of view, and the back focus distance is optimized and set to a specific distance… Celestron clearly states in the EdgeHG line documents that the back focus distance from the rear flange to the sensor MUST BE EXACTLY 133.35mm for the EdgeHD 8" or 146.05mm for the other EdgeHD models.

So,  using a "focuser" on the light-path after the field-flattening lenses will result in WRONG backfocus distance every time focus is adjusted, how are people using external focusers with EdgeHDs are respecting the stated Celentron backfocus?

Reagards
PA
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Hey Paulo
I do use the C8 EdgeHD with the Celestron Electronic Focuser and have no trouble switching between gear of diffrent sizes:
Using the full length Celestron T-Adaptor directly with a DSLR (Canon 80D) or ZWO ASS 183mc PRO. No problems with an additional M42/M54 adaptor (~2mm) and an ASI 2600mc DUO.
I have no troubles getting into focus when using the half-length T-Adaptor to make space for a rotator and a filter drawer even though those two don't match the full length of T-Adaptor exactly.
I haven't tried using the reducer in combination with the half-length T-Adaptor AND the rotator and filter drawer yet, but as the focuser has plenty of room to move I am fairly optimistic that'll work out, too. (Famous last words…).

So, I think "MUST BE EXACTLY" is just poorly phrased…

CS
Robin
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Robin Bosshard:
Hey Paulo
I do use the C8 EdgeHD with the Celestron Electronic Focuser and have no trouble switching between gear of diffrent sizes:
Using the full length Celestron T-Adaptor directly with a DSLR (Canon 80D) or ZWO ASS 183mc PRO. No problems with an additional M42/M54 adaptor (~2mm) and an ASI 2600mc DUO.
I have no troubles getting into focus when using the half-length T-Adaptor to make space for a rotator and a filter drawer even though those two don't match the full length of T-Adaptor exactly.
I haven't tried using the reducer in combination with the half-length T-Adaptor AND the rotator and filter drawer yet, but as the focuser has plenty of room to move I am fairly optimistic that'll work out, too. (Famous last words...).

So, I think "MUST BE EXACTLY" is just poorly phrased...

CS
Robin

My question was about using external focusers, not the Celestron Electronic Focuser  (that is only a motor) that moves the Edge primary mirror and doing so changes the light cone before light reaches the field flattening lenses installed in the baffle tube.

The problem arises when you add an external focuser, like the ESATTO focuser or the MoonLite CHL 2.5" Crayford that are 'screwed' into the optical path after the rear flange, and so are atfer the internal flattening lenses and  at a stage where backfocus should be fixed. 

If we move this external focuser, we are effectively changing the backfocus in many millimeters ...  for instances, the ESATTO focuser has 15 mm of travel ...  if we focus in we decrease the distance from the rear flange to the sensor, if we focus out we increase the distance from the rear flange to the sensor way more mm then the 0.5mm tolerance stated by Celestron.

I have used over a dozen SCTs since 1995, and have installed external focusers on some, the issue is that an SCT does not have field flattening lenses installed in the baffle tube as they exist in the EdgeHD line, and the design of the EdgeHD, since they have field flattening lenses, does not allow the use of external focusers mounted in such a way as to alter the backfocus aafterwards the said lenses.

I find it strange that this isn't mentioned when people talk about external focusers on an EdgeHD... or else I'm missing something.
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umasscrew39 13.55
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I got around that issue by using the Optec Secondary Mirror Focusing System.  It makes the most sense to me and works brilliantly.  By focusing with the secondary mirror, the optical train backfocus is a nonissue.  I told Jeff Dickerman (Optec owner) that this system should be standard on all Celestron HDs.  He told me that Celestron told him it won’t work.
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jhayes_tucson 26.84
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The specification of the back working distance comes from the optical design and it relates to the field correction of the system.   For the Edge14 HD systems the tolerance for a large sensor with a 52 mm diameter image circle (for a 36 mm x 36 mm sensor) is roughly +/- 100 microns to avoid excessive astigmatism.  The tolerance increases dramatically as you go to smaller sensors.  Setting the BWD correctly is what determines the mirror spacing.  So, if you have an external focuser, set the correct back working distance of the sensor at the middle of the focus range and adjust the mirror spacing to focus the image.  When you focus with the external focuser, you shouldn't have to be moving the focuser by more than about +/- half the depth of focus, which for an F/10 system is about +/- 125 microns–at most.  For most smaller sensors under normal seeing conditions, that small amount of motion needed to keep the system in focus won't have much (if any) effect on the field performance.

John
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Bruce Donzanti:
I got around that issue by using the Optec Secondary Mirror Focusing System.  It makes the most sense to me and works brilliantly.  By focusing with the secondary mirror, the optical train backfocus is a nonissue.  I told Jeff Dickerman (Optec owner) that this system should be standard on all Celestron HDs.  He told me that Celestron told him it won’t work.

Indeed,  moving secondary mirror is a solution, I've seen the Optec Secondary Focuser on some C11s... but it's not very practical for a motorized solution which is my main intention in order to use the EdgeHD remotely.
I think I'll have to stick with the Edge's original focus and deal with the possible mirror slop using gravity's help.
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umasscrew39 13.55
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I’m not sure I am following you.  What do you mean by, “ it's not very practical for a motorized solution which is my main intention in order to use the EdgeHD remotely”?  It works like any motorized focuser.  Maybe I am not understanding your point.
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jhayes_tucson 26.84
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Bruce Donzanti:
I got around that issue by using the Optec Secondary Mirror Focusing System.  It makes the most sense to me and works brilliantly.  By focusing with the secondary mirror, the optical train backfocus is a nonissue.  I told Jeff Dickerman (Optec owner) that this system should be standard on all Celestron HDs.  He told me that Celestron told him it won’t work.

Bruce,
I completely agree that the Optec SMFS is absolutely the way to go and I've recommended it to a lot of folks.  However, it most certainly does NOT make the position of the sensor a "nonissue".   As I said previously, the field correction is very dependent on the position of the sensor.   The issue is much more critical with larger sensors so if you are using a sensor size that pushes the limit of the specified imaging circle for your telescope model, it is critical to optimize the BWD in order to achieve good field correction.  @Niall MacNeill  did a superb job of testing this on his Edge14 HD and showed how critical the spacing was to getting good star images in the corners of his sensor.  Perhaps Niall can join this discussion and share some of his data.

John
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umasscrew39 13.55
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John Hayes:
Bruce Donzanti:
I got around that issue by using the Optec Secondary Mirror Focusing System.  It makes the most sense to me and works brilliantly.  By focusing with the secondary mirror, the optical train backfocus is a nonissue.  I told Jeff Dickerman (Optec owner) that this system should be standard on all Celestron HDs.  He told me that Celestron told him it won’t work.

Bruce,
I completely agree that the Optec SMFS is absolutely the way to go and I've recommended it to a lot of folks.  However, it most certainly does NOT make the position of the sensor a "nonissue".   As I said previously, the field correction is very dependent on the position of the sensor.   The issue is much more critical with larger sensors so if you are using a sensor size that pushes the limit of the specified imaging circle for your telescope model, it is critical to optimize the BWD in order to achieve good field correction.  @Niall MacNeill  did a superb job of testing this on his Edge14 HD and showed how critical the spacing was to getting good star images in the corners of his sensor.  Perhaps Niall can join this discussion and share some of his data.

John

John- I completely agree!!!!  That isn't what I meant, sorry if I poorly worded it that way.  In fact, you and I talked about this a few years back and I tested it myself and I remember Nail's testing that you mentioned to me, and I chatted with him about it briefly.  All I meant was that SMFS does not affect the backfocus adjustments you need to make based on the sensor.
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Bruce Donzanti:
I’m not sure I am following you.  What do you mean by, “ it's not very practical for a motorized solution which is my main intention in order to use the EdgeHD remotely”?  It works like any motorized focuser.  Maybe I am not understanding your point.

You're right, I had the idea that ​​this Optec focuser wasn't motorized... my mistake.

I've been reading the info on the Optec website and it really does seem like an EXCELLENT solution... but from what I understand it only exists for the EdgeHD 11"
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macnenia 5.87
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John Hayes:
Bruce,
I completely agree that the Optec SMFS is absolutely the way to go and I've recommended it to a lot of folks.  However, it most certainly does NOT make the position of the sensor a "nonissue".   As I said previously, the field correction is very dependent on the position of the sensor.   The issue is much more critical with larger sensors so if you are using a sensor size that pushes the limit of the specified imaging circle for your telescope model, it is critical to optimize the BWD in order to achieve good field correction.  @Niall MacNeill  did a superb job of testing this on his Edge14 HD and showed how critical the spacing was to getting good star images in the corners of his sensor.  Perhaps Niall can join this discussion and share some of his data.

John

Thanks @John Hayes , I appreciate the compliment. I had documented quite a bit of this work, but you have prompted me to finsih that. Here is the document:
Backfocus Optimisation.docx
Niall
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GalacticRAVE 6.67
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Dear Paolo, you are correct, with an external focuser you systematically and intentionally violate the BF specification of the Edge series. As @John Hayes pointed out, this is less of a problem if you're BF is within say 100 mu, the bad thing is, that owing to the optical design of an SCT, a BF mismatch of 100 mu corresponds to an error on the mirror position of only 1/25 (5^2, 5 being the magnifying factor of the secondary) of this length, i.e. only 4 mu. For typical SCTs with an aluminum tube this corresponds to the thermal contraction of the tube by only a fraction of a degree C, while for a typical mid European climate (where I am observing), the temperature difference between the beginning and the end of the night is more like 5C (and for a dry desert climate it can be 2x as large and more). Will say:  even when you fine tune the focus with a Bahtinov mask and the mirror focuser at say the beginning of the night, the secondary focuser will  move the sensor out of BF fairly soon. Solution could be to use a carbon tube (ie open heart surgery on your SCT) or the Optec focuser shifting the secondary. The later is probably conceptionally the best solution. I have not used it (yet), but @John Hayes has excellent experience. My main problem is that for an Edge 11 (my scope), the cost of the focuser would be 2/3 of the cost of the OTA - which appears a bit disproportionate. For an Edge 14 (listen, Santa!), I probably would go that route. 

However, the 100 mu tolerance above may be a bit to stringent, as we usually don't use our Celestrons in space, and most of us not even on Paranal or Mauna Kea. There is a fairly detailed analysis by Innovations foresight https://www.innovationsforesight.com/support/celestron-edgehd-back-focus-tolerance/ who basically come to the conclusion that a much larger offset is tolerable, they are actually arguing (and giving the derivation for it) that for a 2" seeing even a BF shift of 20 mm (sic!) would only result in a 10% increase of the FWHM on a full frame camera (and for APSC one could even tolerate 50mm). Personally I consider these estimates far too optimistic, as they assume a spherical geometry for the PSF and also for the aberration, while in praxis stars are deformed radially/tangentially if your BF is too small/too large, and your eye is quite sensitive it detecting deviations from circular. But the BF requirement seems to be considerably weaker than mentioned above. 

Having said this, I also think that many of the problems with the internal focuser can be mitigated by making sure that the last motion of the focuser is always CCW, ie against the gravity, and that while focussing you always run CCW (which for the commonly used ZWO EAF means to have it set to reverse). This allows good V curves when focussing and prevents mirror flop except possibly after substantial repointing of the telescope like a meridian flip - but under that conditions it is good practice to refocus anyway. What remains is a image shift when focussing - which is a real nuisance when switching filters in combination with an OAG, and my experience is also that the V curves with a good external focuser are better (smoother, more monotonic).

My own experience is consistent with the BF tolerances. Since I am using an external focuser (and I set the mirror position at the beginning of the night such that at the extrapolated middle of the night temperature I am in perfect BF) I am getting better (sharper) PSFs, even though the focus position can shift by almost a mm over a night, compared to focusing with the mirror/and OAG. So from a pragmatic point of view: all good, but the purist/physicist in me is not fully satisfied. 

Matthias

PS: one could of course think of having two focuser over the night, the standard mirror one every hour or so to position the mirror (maybe with a temperature predictor) and the external one for fine tuning and filter shifts - but I haven't found a way to tell NINA how to operate (and switch between) two focusers ... (in case a NINA hacker reads this ...)
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jhayes_tucson 26.84
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However, the 100 mu tolerance above may be a bit to stringent, as we usually don't use our Celestrons in space, and most of us not even on Paranal or Mauna Kea. There is a fairly detailed analysis by Innovations foresight https://www.innovationsforesight.com/support/celestron-edgehd-back-focus-tolerance/ who basically come to the conclusion that a much larger offset is tolerable, they are actually arguing (and giving the derivation for it) that for a 2" seeing even a BF shift of 20 mm (sic!) would only result in a 10% increase of the FWHM on a full frame camera (and for APSC one could even tolerate 50mm). Personally I consider these estimates far too optimistic, as they assume a spherical geometry for the PSF and also for the aberration, while in praxis stars are deformed radially/tangentially if your BF is too small/too large, and your eye is quite sensitive it detecting deviations from circular. But the BF requirement seems to be considerably weaker than mentioned above.


Gaston's (IF!!) calculation is not looking at image quality at the edge of the field.  I did this same calculation years ago and I agree with Gaston's conclusion--if you only consider FWHM.  However, the key issue is the amount of astigmatism in the field; not FWHM.   I have the optical prescription for the Edge14 HD so I could look at this in detail when I get some time, but I'm pretty busy right now so that might take a while.  In the meantime, @Niall MacNeill did a great job of experimentally verifying the effect of excess astigmatism in the field with BWD error for a large sensor and the tolerance looks like it is fairly tight to avoid elongated stars at the edge of the field.

John
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GalacticRAVE 6.67
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Hi John,

would be quite interested to see that analysis. if it is the one you posted on CN a while ago

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/506609-how-critical-is-the-c11-edge-hd-backfocus/page-2#entry7105626

where you estimated the required tolerance to O(+/- 1mm), it would be quite consistent with my limited experience outlined above.

Matthias
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jhayes_tucson 26.84
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Good catch Matthias!  I forgot all about doing that analysis 9 years ago.  Yes, that post addresses the same question and as I said, "With a large sensor (approaching or exceeding the 42 mm image circle spec,) the tolerance shrinks to less than +/- 1.0 mm and the best position probably has to be found experimentally to take into account manufacturing variations.  Smaller sensors can get away with considerably more "slop" in the position."   I think that Niall did a pretty good job of approaching the question experimentally.  And remember that my numbers and Niall's results all apply to the 14" Edge scopes.  I did the calculation at a 42 mm image circle and Nial used a 16803 sensor at an imaging circle of 52 mm so his tolerance was super tight.

John
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