I am getting advice to delete Solve & Sync from the NINA advanced sequence because I have already built a 99 star model using 10Micron Tools. I am imaging unguided and getting excellent results. Should I follow this advice? Is the model itself already doing what plate solving and sync is doing?
Thanks,
Jerry
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If you can avoid using S&S then why not?
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The model is pointing the mount close to the exact coordinates, based on where the nearest model point is to the target. There will always be a small error in this - with a good model it could be around 10-15 arcsecs. Often it is much more. Solve and Sync will correct for such errors. If you're happy with these errors then you can delete Solve and Sync.
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Jerry Gerber:
I am getting advice to delete Solve & Sync from the NINA advanced sequence because I have already built a 99 star model using 10Micron Tools. I am imaging unguided and getting excellent results. Should I follow this advice? Is the model itself already doing what plate solving and sync is doing?
Thanks,
Jerry *Generally, good model makes pointing with accuracy of 5-15”. However, wind and bad seeing may affect such accuracy. So, I always use Solve and Sync from NINA to correct occasional inaccurate pointing. Clear Skies! Armen
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My understanding is (I could be wrong) that ASCOM and NINA sync should be turned off as this can mess up the model. Peter Goodhew:
The model is pointing the mount close to the exact coordinates, based on where the nearest model point is to the target. There will always be a small error in this - with a good model it could be around 10-15 arcsecs. Often it is much more. Solve and Sync will correct for such errors. If you're happy with these errors then you can delete Solve and Sync. If we're talking about 10-15 arc seconds of pointing error when imaging a nebula, galaxy or star cluster, I don't see that as being an issue because when in post-processing I'm usually composing and cropping the image so even 60 arc-seconds of pointing error wouldn't have any impact on the final image.
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Can Solve & Sync mess up the model? I am hearing that with 10Micron mounts there's a setting in the ASCOM driver that must be off or the model can get corrupted..
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I've been using 10micron models for 7 years on two different systems and never heard of that.
I always use solve and sync despite the models.
It tells me how well the model is performing, and brings me within 10 arc secs of the target.
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In "10 micron mount configuration" software open "Setting". There is "Sync" domain, un-click "Enable Sync", when model is stablished. It should be clicked in during model building. I use "Model Creator 2".
In NINA, go to "Options", then "Equipment". There is "Mount" domain there, both "Coordinate Sync" and "Time Sync" could be "ON", when model has already been built.
This is a setting that I use. I usually build a model on average once in 3-4 months. My rig is in an observatory.
Clear Skies!
Armen
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AnaTa:
In "10 micron mount configuration" software open "Setting". There is "Sync" domain, un-click "Enable Sync", when model is stablished. It should be clicked in during model building. I use "Model Creator 2".
In NINA, go to "Options", then "Equipment". There is "Mount" domain there, both "Coordinate Sync" and "Time Sync" could be "ON", when model has already been built.
This is a setting that I use. I usually build a model on average once in 3-4 months. My rig is in an observatory.
Clear Skies!
Armen When I unclick "Enable Sync" in the 10Micron ASCOM driver, I get a "failed" display in NINA's advanced sequencer, the NINA log shows that plate solving succeeded but sync failed. The only way to resolve this is to turn "Enable Sync" back on in the 10Micron ASCOM driver. I am using a different model builder, I am using the 10Micron Tools plugin for NINA. This model builder does not need the Enable Sync turned on to build the model, but NINA apparently needs it checked when doing a Solve & Sync in the sequencer. Go figure...
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Peter Goodhew:
I've been using 10micron models for 7 years on two different systems and never heard of that.
I always use solve and sync despite the models.
It tells me how well the model is performing, and brings me within 10 arc secs of the target. Are you using the 10Micron Tools (NINA plugin) or another model builder? Apparently these model builders behave differently. I use 10Micron Tools model builder..
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Using 10Micron Tools model builder.
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Jerry Gerber:
AnaTa:
In "10 micron mount configuration" software open "Setting". There is "Sync" domain, un-click "Enable Sync", when model is stablished. It should be clicked in during model building. I use "Model Creator 2".
In NINA, go to "Options", then "Equipment". There is "Mount" domain there, both "Coordinate Sync" and "Time Sync" could be "ON", when model has already been built.
This is a setting that I use. I usually build a model on average once in 3-4 months. My rig is in an observatory.
Clear Skies!
Armen
When I unclick "Enable Sync" in the 10Micron ASCOM driver, I get a "failed" display in NINA's advanced sequencer, the NINA log shows that plate solving succeeded but sync failed. The only way to resolve this is to turn "Enable Sync" back on in the 10Micron ASCOM driver.
I am using a different model builder, I am using the 10Micron Tools plugin for NINA. This model builder does not need the Enable Sync turned on to build the model, but NINA apparently needs it checked when doing a Solve & Sync in the sequencer. Go figure... Interesting, the setting that I have mentioned was advised by 10 micron. They also advised model creator for model building. I have never used NINA plug in for modeling in 10 micron. Clear Skies! Armen
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Peter Goodhew:
I've been using 10micron models for 7 years on two different systems and never heard of that.
I always use solve and sync despite the models.
It tells me how well the model is performing, and brings me within 10 arc secs of the target. Hi Peter. Might you know what Sync settings you are using in the 10Micron ASCOM driver? When I turn off the "enable sync" option, NINA gives an error in the advanced sequencer saying tht sync has failed. When "Enable Sync" is checked, this problem goes away and Solve & Sync is successful. I'm getting a lot of conflicting comments from people over at the 10Micron forum! Best, Jerry
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Enable Sync ON
Use Sync as Refine OFF (this is obviously ON when building the model)
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Peter Goodhew:
Enable Sync ON
Use Sync as Refine OFF (this is obviously ON when building the model) Yep, that's the same settings that work for me. Thanks Peter!
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I think you got there already, but just to add:
Sync as Refine will add each new sync to the model and that is what you definitely don't want, so turn it off, and only on when model building.
Enable Sync just makes sure that the mount and software work with the same coordinates for a given physical positioning of the mount. 10Micron advises to keep this off, just in case you forget to turn off Sync as Refine.
In your example, the behaviour that you want is that if you point to a target and you're off by a small amount, that the mount actually moves to the desired position. I don't know NINA, but in KStar/Ekos that is called 'Solve and Slew to target', and in Voyager that is called 'Precise Pointing'. If NINA has an option similar to 'Solve and and move to target', you may want to select that. But again, as long as you keep off Sync as Refine, there is not much that can go wrong.
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Hello Jerry,
we already discussed this point excessively in 10M forum.
Never ever add a sync to the exiting model after it has been created, since you destroy the model. When ever you have an issue with accuracy (pointing), discard the model and create a new one. Adding a sync point after the model creation, e.g. on another day, will corrupt the model for sure, since the conditions are not identical. Moreover there is no need!
Moreover, if "sync as refine point" is off, you translate the complete model by an offset, to the new sync coords delta. Latest here, your complete model is corrupt. I this case it is better not to use any model and run the mount without a model at all.
Therefore "Sync enabled" should always be disabled in the ASCOM driver. The only exception is if you create a model with "Model Creator" since this is the only tool, which uses ASCOM. All other tools use the native command protocol. It really would have been better, if 10M would have not exposed this feature in ASCOM.
You should use "slew and center" instead..
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Peter Goodhew:
Enable Sync ON
Use Sync as Refine OFF (this is obviously ON when building the model) Hello Peter, this is not a good idea, since to translate the complete model by an offset. If it is tiny, since you have good model, you don't notice the problem, but it piles up, because you add more and more "random" model translation. More reading here: https://www.10micron.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2274 |
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Jerry Gerber:
Peter Goodhew:
I've been using 10micron models for 7 years on two different systems and never heard of that.
I always use solve and sync despite the models.
It tells me how well the model is performing, and brings me within 10 arc secs of the target.
Hi Peter.
Might you know what Sync settings you are using in the 10Micron ASCOM driver? When I turn off the "enable sync" option, NINA gives an error in the advanced sequencer saying tht sync has failed. When "Enable Sync" is checked, this problem goes away and Solve & Sync is successful. I'm getting a lot of conflicting comments from people over at the 10Micron forum!
Best,
Jerry It is not the solution to the problem. This is the wrong command. The correct command is "slew and center" and not "solve and sync".
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Ruediger:
Hello Jerry,
we already discussed this point excessively in 10M forum.
Never ever add a sync to the exiting model after it has been created, since you destroy the model. When ever you have an issue with accuracy (pointing), discard the model and create a new one. Adding a sync point after the model creation, e.g. on another day, will corrupt the model for sure, since the conditions are not identical. Moreover there is no need!
Moreover, if "sync as refine point" is off, you translate the complete model by an offset, to the new sync coords delta. Latest here, your complete model is corrupt. I this case it is better not to use any model and run the mount without a model at all.
Therefore "Sync enabled" should always be disabled in the ASCOM driver. The only exception is if you create a model with "Model Creator" since this is the only tool, which uses ASCOM. All other tools use the native command protocol. It really would have been better, if 10M would have not exposed this feature in ASCOM.
You should use "slew and center" instead..Hi Ruediger, I'm getting completely opposite advice from you and Peter. My experience has been to build a model, keep Nina sync ON, the ASCOM driver "Enable Sync" ON and keep "Sync as Refine" OFF. I've had it set like this for a year and unguided tracking has been fine. Maybe you & Peter can compare notes? If the model gets corrupted, wouldn't that show up as poor tracking, star trails, etc.? I'm not seeing any of that.
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Jerry Gerber:
Ruediger:
Hello Jerry,
we already discussed this point excessively in 10M forum.
Never ever add a sync to the exiting model after it has been created, since you destroy the model. When ever you have an issue with accuracy (pointing), discard the model and create a new one. Adding a sync point after the model creation, e.g. on another day, will corrupt the model for sure, since the conditions are not identical. Moreover there is no need!
Moreover, if "sync as refine point" is off, you translate the complete model by an offset, to the new sync coords delta. Latest here, your complete model is corrupt. I this case it is better not to use any model and run the mount without a model at all.
Therefore "Sync enabled" should always be disabled in the ASCOM driver. The only exception is if you create a model with "Model Creator" since this is the only tool, which uses ASCOM. All other tools use the native command protocol. It really would have been better, if 10M would have not exposed this feature in ASCOM.
You should use "slew and center" instead..Hi Ruediger,
I'm getting completely opposite advice from you and Peter.
My experience has been to build a model, keep Nina sync ON, the ASCOM driver "Enable Sync" ON and keep "Sync as Refine" OFF.
I've had it set like this for a year and unguided tracking has been fine.
Maybe you & Peter can compare notes?
If the model gets corrupted, wouldn't that show up as poor tracking, star trails, etc.? I'm not seeing any of that. The ASCOM settings are not used by the 10M Plugin. So there is no need to switch it on. Only the commands in the sequencer will use ASCOM. ANY sync beyond modelling corrupts the model. Either by adding an additional point to the model which was taken under different constraints, or it is translating the entire model. Depending on the refine option. Whether it is noticeable, or not, depends on the error of the additional sync. If you are lucky it is minimal, if not, you are completely messed up. Essay to understand example: You take an image and heavy wind gust is pushing the scope and then you sync... That is the moment where your model is done for sure. One more? E..g a focuser slip and tilt, a vibration, more and more. One single erroneous snyc will be fatal. Also it depends on you focal length and exposure times. If you are running short fl e.g. 1000mm, any error is less noticeable, but i can ensure you at more than 4m fl and long exposure you will immediately notice the problem. Please help me to understand: What should an additional sync be good for, when you have a valid model? What do you want to achieve?
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Ruediger:
Jerry Gerber:
Ruediger:
Hello Jerry,
we already discussed this point excessively in 10M forum.
Never ever add a sync to the exiting model after it has been created, since you destroy the model. When ever you have an issue with accuracy (pointing), discard the model and create a new one. Adding a sync point after the model creation, e.g. on another day, will corrupt the model for sure, since the conditions are not identical. Moreover there is no need!
Moreover, if "sync as refine point" is off, you translate the complete model by an offset, to the new sync coords delta. Latest here, your complete model is corrupt. I this case it is better not to use any model and run the mount without a model at all.
Therefore "Sync enabled" should always be disabled in the ASCOM driver. The only exception is if you create a model with "Model Creator" since this is the only tool, which uses ASCOM. All other tools use the native command protocol. It really would have been better, if 10M would have not exposed this feature in ASCOM.
You should use "slew and center" instead..Hi Ruediger,
I'm getting completely opposite advice from you and Peter.
My experience has been to build a model, keep Nina sync ON, the ASCOM driver "Enable Sync" ON and keep "Sync as Refine" OFF.
I've had it set like this for a year and unguided tracking has been fine.
Maybe you & Peter can compare notes?
If the model gets corrupted, wouldn't that show up as poor tracking, star trails, etc.? I'm not seeing any of that.
The ASCOM settings are not used by the 10M Plugin. So there is no need to switch it on. Only the commands in the sequencer will use ASCOM.
ANY sync beyond modelling corrupts the model. Either by adding an additional point to the model which was taken under different constraints, or it is translating the entire model. Depending on the refine option.
Whether it is noticeable, or not, depends on the error of the additional sync. If you are lucky it is minimal, if not, you are completely messed up. Essay to understand example:
You take an image and heavy wind gust is pushing the scope and then you sync... That is the moment where your model is done for sure. One more? E..g a focuser slip and tilt, a vibration, more and more. One single erroneous snyc will be fatal.
Also it depends on you focal length and exposure times. If you are running short fl e.g. 1000mm, any error is less noticeable, but i can ensure you at more than 4m fl and long exposure you will immediately notice the problem.
Please help me to understand: What should an additional sync be good for, when you have a valid model? What do you want to achieve? Well said! For FL of 430mm, I run 10-12 point-model on HandPad controller and it is fine. Absolutely fine.
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My brand new Moonlight Nightcrawler focuser's circuit board failed after 3 nights of use so no imaging for me for 1-2 weeks ;>(.
As soon as the focuser is returned with a new circuit board I'll try turning off Sync Enable & remove "Solve & Sync" from NINA'S advanced sequencer.
If aall is well I'll leave it at that. Although I may have to build a new model…
Thanks,
Jerry
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