I guess I'm a bit confused (and since the OP has disappeared, I don’t think I'll get any clarification) about the "art" comment. So if I build a rolloff in my backyard (which I have done) and set my equipment up permanently, does that mean since I am not sitting at the scope watching it gather images it is no longer art? I run my equipment remotely, it's just the remote distance is only 100 feet vice 2500 miles (for now). If that's the case then the art went away as soon as we no longer had to be hunched over looking through a reticle eyepiece keeping a star centered for hours on end...  In the not too distant future, I plan to move my equipment remote to skies that are worth my substantial equipment investment. I live in a Bortle 5 area and frankly I could live with that but unfortunately we also normally have abysmal seeing around here. So my choices are move myself AND my equipment to a much better location and build another rolloff (learning from my mistakes the first time around  ) which would be my selection if the wife would go along with that plan (she won't), or move my equipment and personally set it up myself at a much better location. Once that is done, the only thing that has changed is the distance at which I am operating my equipment. I'll still periodically go to the remote site to do maintenance and such and even probably spend a couple of nights imaging at the much shorter remote distance to get a fix of watching my equipment do it's thing. To each his own as they say...
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Tony Gondola:
If the greater public paid more attention to outdoor lighting, all of this would be less of an issue but that's never gonna happen so options are good and needed. Yeah, ain't that the truth! I've lost count of how many houses in our neighborhood have bought into the ultra bright home floodlight craze (including one right behind my backyard!); and some leave them on throughout the night too.. (as if Bortle 8 isn't bad enough already).. On the bright side (pun intended) I can add a new accessory to my rig and make adjustments and even read the instruction manual without extra light!
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Derek Morf:
The contributor did say it was controversial, a bit surprised they removed themselves from the conversation... They seem to have removed themselves from Astrobin period. A bit extreme.
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Derek Morf:
The contributor did say it was controversial, a bit surprised they removed themselves from the conversation...
They seem to have removed themselves from Astrobin period. A bit extreme.
Oh wow, really?!
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The greater threat to dark sites may be from above, rather than below, anyhow. When there are a 100,000 satellites in the sky, it's estimated that the collective reflected light will increase night sky brightness by 12%, everywhere. Bortle 1 to Bortle 4 is 20-30% different, so there may be no Bortle 1 sites anywhere. Maybe no Bortle 2, and wherever you are, your Bortle rating goes up a notch or two….. And for those of us that enjoy our backyard rigs for the under-starry-skies time they excuse, will it be the same when in a single fov there'll be 50 or more satellites visible? From my backyard in NH, it's not uncommon to see 4 now at 5-6,000.
Cheers,
Scott
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When I received my Edge11HD and setup it on my balcony, looked through it for some iconic brightest PNs (M27, M57, cat's eye), I'm already very satisfied but nothing else is available. And you know, anything fainter than these brighest objs are not visible in my B6.5 balcony. There are way too much restrictions. The limited angle of view: only 60 degree from west to north, limited horizontal angle: only 30-60 degree are available, and lights in neighbour high school: they used to not turn off light, and now they turn off after 12:00am. I have to carefully arrange imaging sequence for a night. And the coming cold cloudy winter in northeast. And the possible moving out. They are drive me to setup my remote observatory and maybe sell part of my home devices, they won't have any chance to be used.
CS
Yingtian
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Is it cheating if my 'scope is larger than yours, that I wear prescription glasses to improve my eyesight, have darker skies, that I bought my telescope instead of grinding my own lenses, that I have more time for the hobby, that I bought a mount with GoTo instead of using "star-hopping", or that I have more money than you to pursue it? How about those of us who have a robotic observatory in their own backyard just to escape the cold? Are they cheating too? Of course not.
I live in the inner city, Bortle 9. My "backyard" is a 9th floor balcony with a limited bright-sky view. I've had the police called on me twice (once to report I had "an anti-aircraft" gun). My environment severely handicaps this fine hobby for me. I don't need to be called a "cheater", that I don't qualify for the hobby because of my handicaps. There's not a lot of difference between paying money to buy one's equipment or renting it, either way, those photos are yours.
This is a hobby. There are multiple ways to engage in it. Let's move on.
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Scott Badger:
The greater threat to dark sites may be from above, rather than below, anyhow. When there are a 100,000 satellites in the sky, it's estimated that the collective reflected light will increase night sky brightness by 12%, everywhere. Bortle 1 to Bortle 4 is 20-30% different, so there may be no Bortle 1 sites anywhere. Maybe no Bortle 2, and wherever you are, your Bortle rating goes up a notch or two..... And for those of us that enjoy our backyard rigs for the under-starry-skies time they excuse, will it be the same when in a single fov there'll be 50 or more satellites visible? From my backyard in NH, it's not uncommon to see 4 now at 5-6,000.
Cheers,
Scott That's really depressing. How ironic that with modern technology we're ruining the direct experience of being able to look up and wonder in the darkness. Astronomy would have never even evolved if ancient people were not able to see what's up there and begin thinking about our place in the scheme of things. I wish there were a limit to how many satellites could be orbiting the Earth at any one time and that a material could be used for satellites that only absorbs light rather than reflect it.
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So, I have a close friend that is into this hobby as much as I . However he spends way more time on image acquisition and post processioning than I do. In contrary I spend a lot more more on gear than he does.
The point is that each of us enjoys the hobby differently, The part I personally like most of the hobby is messing around with my gear, (this happens to upset my wife a lot)
I rarely publish my images publicly, and dont really look to "impress anyone online or otherwise" with my images. But my friend loves sharing his images and takes great pride in them.
If someone is focused on "getting the best images possible" "via any means possible" then remote observatories, seem like a reasonable idea. Using a remote site, is no more cheating than using a faster/better telescope, or using blurxterminator, actually I would argue renting someone elses gear is a reasonable solution too, if that suits your needs and is your focus.
For that matter if your joy is just getting good pics and you want to pay someone to get them for you, thats your own decision.
Active Time / Leased Time / Sleeping Time ????
My Gear / Your Gear / Rented Gear / Borrowed Gear ??
Pix Insight / Photo Shop / Stacked / Long Exposure ???
Dark Site / Remote site / My house / In the city ???
Tracked / Guided
Filters/ No filters
Big pixels / Small Pixels / Fast Scope, / Slow Etc.
Honestly I think thats what makes this fun, we all get to do our own thing and hope it turns out great..
In addition, When I look at images online, and on this website, I enjoy them equally if they were captured on a mnt top, on someones backyard or in a remote observatory, etc. I am always impressed at dedication, skills and talent, and I suppose some of that can be mis-represented through the way the image was captured, processed, obtained etc.
But I dont have time to be the AP Police., I guess I will throw in that removing the "competitive nature" part of this hobby has increased the enjoyment for me too. Comparison is the thief of contentment.
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I do think it's possible to be very Zen about the whole thing and some people can do that. For me, being at least, being a little bit competitive can be a positive driver if it's not taken too far, turning the only reason to do a thing. Do I want my images to be the best they can be, yes. Do I want them to be as good as most imagers, yes. Do I want to be one of the best, it would be nice. Of course personal satisfaction is a big part of it, I'm my worst critic and that alone is a big driver but looking at other work as a point of comparison drives me too.
This reminds me of a fellow photographer (not astro) I used to know. He put up a 16x20 print one morning and asked what I thought about it. I said, it's great but a bit soft. To be honest, he just missed focus. His response was, "well I like it, it's fine". If you looked at the rest of his work it was all ok, just not quite as good as it could be because he didn't feel driven to make it any better. I just can't work that way. I'm always feeling there's a little bit more I can squeeze out of my system, I'm never at 100%. That comes from being ruthlessly self-critical as well as comparing to standards of excellence. I suppose if I reached a point where I truly believed the work was the best it could be, I'd loose interest and move on to something else.
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Tony Gondola:
I do think it's possible to be very Zen about the whole thing and some people can do that. For me, being at least, being a little bit competitive can be a positive driver if it's not taken too far, turning the only reason to do a thing. Do I want my images to be the best they can be, yes. Do I want them to be as good as most imagers, yes. Do I want to be one of the best, it would be nice. Of course personal satisfaction is a big part of it, I'm my worst critic and that alone is a big driver but looking at other work as a point of comparison drives me too.
This reminds me of a fellow photographer (not astro) I used to know. He put up a 16x20 print one morning and asked what I thought about it. I said, it's great but a bit soft. To be honest, he just missed focus. His response was, "well I like it, it's fine". If you looked at the rest of his work it was all ok, just not quite as good as it could be because he didn't feel driven to make it any better. I just can't work that way. I'm always feeling there's a little bit more I can squeeze out of my system, I'm never at 100%. That comes from being ruthlessly self-critical as well as comparing to standards of excellence. I suppose if I reached a point where I truly believed the work was the best it could be, I'd loose interest and move on to something else. Trust me your images will always be better than mine. But I see your point of view. I want mine to be better and improving all the time, and that's why I aske for feedback. Like you, I dont think I have ever squeezed 100% out of my setup/location/potential. Im guilty of upgrading way too soon. I don't think the work will ever be the "best it can be", that's what keeps me coming back for more. In some of these threads, I sense this underlying sentiment of "I'm upset because that image is perceived as better than mine, and I don't agree with the way it was obtained/processed/created", for me that's not Zen its actually a step into reality. I suppose if I wanted to compete, I would look for more even playing rules. For example I have seen a "one shot Milkyway image" forum on FB. They standardize the rules of 1 shot, no stacking, and no rotators. I honestly got bored with it pretty quickly, but at least everyone agrees to play by the same rules. I personally like the chaos of AP, I love seeing the guys building a house on a mnt top, driving a trailer to house their 48inch dob, or writing some custom AI software to make images that seem unbelievable. I love seeing the passion going crazy, learning someone put 500hrs integration into an image and then compared it to someones cellphone or seestar images. But thats just my opinion.
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Friendly competition without the gatekeeping wouldn't be so bad, but truly, I've never encountered a hobby/activity nearly as competitive and judged as AP, despite the usual chorus of just 'do it for the joy of it'…… I also enjoy woodworking where, like AP, there's a wide range of gear quality, functionality, cost, and craft. To cut dovetails, you can use a hand-saw and chisels, a router and jig, and now a computer guided router, or any mix of tools and technique that you like. We also take great pride in what we make and love to show off what we've done, but I can't say I've ever heard a tool or technique cast as unfair, or a project diminished as miss-representing the real capabilities of the craftsman.
Comparison is a double edged sword. Seeing what others have done is half-way to doing it yourself, but once you start, you'll always see something you wish you could have done…..
Cheers,
Scott
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Scott Badger:
Friendly competition without the gatekeeping wouldn't be so bad, but truly, I've never encountered a hobby/activity nearly as competitive and judged as AP, despite the usual chorus of just 'do it for the joy of it'...... I also enjoy woodworking where, like AP, there's a wide range of gear quality, functionality, cost, and craft. To cut dovetails, you can use a hand-saw and chisels, a router and jig, and now a computer guided router, or any mix of tools and technique that you like. We also take great pride in what we make and love to show off what we've done, but I can't say I've ever heard a tool or technique cast as unfair, or a project diminished as miss-representing the real capabilities of the craftsman.
Comparison is a double edged sword. Seeing what others have done is half-way to doing it yourself, but once you start, you'll always see something you wish you could have done.....
Cheers,
Scott Well said.
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Scott Badger:
I've never encountered a hobby/activity nearly as competitive and judged as AP Spoken like a true non-musician  |
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Kevin Morefield:
Just the be clear, using a remote facility does not mean you don't set up, tune, manage and own your own equipment. In my case I have equipment in two remote locations and all of that equipment is mine and I installed it myself. I ran every wire, did the polar alignment, balanced the scope, etc. just like I do when out in the field.
Yes, some site will set up the equipment for you but I and many (if not most) others choose to do it ourselves. As you consider your feelings on this topic please keep this in mind.
Kevin Amen, brother. It took me two years here at home to acquire, bench test, and field test the three remote rigs that are now parked 662 miles away from me. Then I got to pack them up, drive them out there (one at a time), and set everything up (including doing PA). I've made seven trips out there in the 18 months since I got the first rig up and running. And even when there's an issue staff can help resolve, that usually involves several hours on the phone working through it with them. When it's not something they can resolve, then I have to figure out a way to get there and take care of it. I have an entire room full of YAFAs (yet another f^&*ing adapter) that I'll never use along with numerous boxes of all kinds of other gear that either never worked to my satisfaction or was obsolesced by something else. I do not enjoy lugging 200lbs of gear in and out of the house. I do not enjoy setting it up. I do not enjoy fretting over the weather for fear of getting stuff rained on. I do not even enjoy going out to my back yard in the evening to turn everything on and I especially do not enjoy going out there in the morning to shut down and cover up. If what's required to validate my work as an astrophotographer is being "hands on" with gear, then why am I let off the hook for not manufacturing the camera sensor with my own hands in my garage or machining all the parts of a focuser myself in my living room? I hate tinkering with gear. It pisses me off to no end. I do it because I have to. And I necessarily do it to the extent I need to in order to get the results I want. I love being outside, but I can do that any time I want without the aggravation of trying to figure out why a camera won't connect or which of these damn knobs to turn which way to move the collimation spikes in the right direction. And when I do go outside, I much prefer to do it when I'm not going to freeze my globular clusters off or be a happy meal for skeeters. If what's required to validate my work as an astrophotographer is literal pain, anxiety, and expense, then I am a true e ffing craftsman. I wish it were that easy. It ain't. Like achieving excellence in any endeavor-- any endeavor--astrophotography requires treasure and dedication. It requires us to do things and put up with things we don't want to so that we have some small chance of turning that pain into art. The beauty of it is, you don't have to be in it to achieve excellence. You can go as deep or as shallow as you want. Or you can simply measure excellence in different ways, such as improvement or innovation. To me, your work still has value simply because you've made the trip. That's rare enough to pay the freight. If you want to get competitive, you can. But it's not like there will be any material reward for that--no fame, no fortune. If I go to a dinner party and ask, "Did you see what Marcel Dreschler and Yann Sainty did?," I'll get a lot of blank stares and be lucky to get invited back. I suspect that's precisely where some of the OP's angst comes from. My dad, the newspaper man, returning from covering local city council meetings used to say, "Son, the lower the stakes, the nastier the fight."
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Timothy Martin:
Scott Badger:
I've never encountered a hobby/activity nearly as competitive and judged as AP
Spoken like a true non-musician True enough, not a musical bone in my body..... But from what I've seen among friends and family that are musicians, isn't it a more friendly, mutually supportive kind of competition? You play better and we all play better? My favorite scene as a listener are blue-grass festivals, and I'd hazard the level of competition and one-upmanship is as high as any other, but it sure looks like everyone is having tons of fun! Cheers, Scott
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Timothy Martin:
If what's required to validate my work as an astrophotographer is being "hands on" with gear, then why am I let off the hook for not manufacturing the camera sensor with my own hands in my garage or machining all the parts of a focuser myself in my living room? I hate tinkering with gear. It pisses me off to no end. I do it because I have to. And I necessarily do it to the extent I need to in order to get the results I want. That would only be valid if you also manufactured the equipement needed to craft those, and the equipement needed to make the equipement. Don't forget that you must also be the one that mined and refined the metal with tools you made! Joking aside, I do see value in operating your own rig, be it from home or remote. But it's more like you also get the credit for operating the equipement on top of the image processing.
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Scott Badger:
But from what I've seen among friends and family that are musicians, isn't it a more friendly, mutually supportive kind of competition? You play better and we all play better? Lol. Um, no. It's a freakin' cutthroat and fickle affair--from junior high through college, from the local symphony to the A&R department at a record label. It's a steel-cage death match. An entire career can turn on a single performance--hell, a single note in a single performance. It can turn on the opinion of the artistic director's wife's cousin's best friend's acquaintance who he talked to once in line at Costco. In terms of nasty competitiveness, astrophotography is not even in the same universe as music. Law is another area that is just as ruthless--maybe even worse. When I was in law school, everyone in my class might get an assignment to write up a case. I would go to the law library to look up the precedents for that case in Shepard's (a pile of cross-reference books a mile wide that contains every case ever decided with every citation to that case from other cases--a thing that is fully automated on Westlaw and Lexis now). Lo and behold, someone else had gotten there first and used an exacto to cut out the pages from the book for the case I was trying to find. That's mild compared to what goes on inside big law firms. Your colleague is not your friend. And this kind of thing goes on in all sorts of businesses, but the law business was the worst I saw in my 60-year career. All kinds of other clients access the observatory, without supervision, where my scopes are. I have never once worried that one of them might pull out a pair of wire cutters and snip the USB cable from my camera to my NUC. If Deep Sky West were Gibson Dunn (a law firm in Dallas), that would happen every day.
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Médéric Hébert:
Joking aside, I do see value in operating your own rig, be it from home or remote. But it's more like you also get the credit for operating the equipement on top of the image processing. I'm with you. That's why I went to the trouble of putting together the rigs myself and it's why I operate them myself. I don't want to have anyone else telling me what to do, how to do it, or when to do it. I spent 60 years in that movie. The point is that the "hands on" thing only goes so far no matter how you slice it. Nevertheless, I'm a very big believer in getting professional help and counseling. I've been a student of Ron Brecher's for four years, and I still go to him all the time to learn new tools and techniques and discuss strategerie. Tolga was absolutely essential in assembling my rigs--not just because he could sell me everything, but also because he knows a tremendous amount about all this gear and how to get it to work.
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Timothy is correct about the music business. Money and ego are the main drivers.
I was hired to score a popular animated TV series and toward the end of the gig, which lasted about 18 months, I started making phone calls to line up new work.
I called an agency in Los Angeles that represents composers and when I told the person who answered the phone what I was doing he literally started screaming at me saying "My friend was supposed to get that job! ". I'm lucky my love of music is deeper than my disgust with the music business.
I'm now retired from making a living in music but ironically, I'm also composing my best music as I'm not under pressure to please anyone else. I think of a quote attributed to Mozart, "Love is a greater motivator than ambition". Certainly true for me.
What I love about getting old is all the frivolous desires and personal ambitions give way to the things that matter most–family, friends, and meaningful creative work.
Astrophotography reminds me all the time of how each one of us is a momentary blip of consciousness in a cosmos so vast that the time scales and distances of objects we image are almost incomprehensible. Gratitude and joy sustain and nourish me, competition and ambition never do.
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I've nothing to add, except to say this is a great conversation.
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Timothy Martin:
If I go to a dinner party and ask, "Did you see what Marcel Dreschler and Yann Sainty did?," I'll get a lot of blank stares and be lucky to get invited back. I suspect that's precisely where some of the OP's angst comes from. My dad, the newspaper man, returning from covering local city council meetings used to say, "Son, the lower the stakes, the nastier the fight." We are so niche that even the names you mention as examples is questionable if they are truly established within our niche community. Without the "NEW DISCOVERY!" image description I can't recognize if an image is theirs. Nowadays more and more astrophotographers do strong noise reduction while messing with the relative brightness of the objects in their images. I am not against that, I am only worried that all images are indifferent and don't attract my attention, regardless of the imaging time or cost of equipment. Many of us believe that we are artists of the heavens and not some mere woodworkers. We eager for recognition instead of being useful and produce something of utility. A short walk in the contest galleries of some remote data providers will prove that what matters is the processing skills and taste of the imager and not the Bortle rating of the sky or the cost of equipment.
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I lease a remote pier. I have equipment there and I use that equipment to capture data every night the roof is open. I went to the remote site. I spent a couple of days installing it with the observatory owner. I mounted it, aligned it, I adjusted it into position. I chose the targets. I run NINA. I am responsible for all the sequences. I have created a data pipeline that takes a first crack at stacking the data (automated) so I can see if the image is improving to the point I want to process it.
I also have a home setup that I roll out into my front yard when the weather is clear. I still enjoy this aspect of the hobby. Again, I have to setup, align, adjust, and determine the targets. When I am setup, I am controlling NINA on a remote PC over an Ethernet cable.
In both instances, I am the "brains" in the loop making active decisions. I have camera rotators on both of my systems. I set the framing. I chose how to process the final images. IMO, remote imaging is a great option if you don't otherwise have access to dark skies and it fits your budget. I live outside Washington, DC. My skies are B7/B8. There is some astrophotography I just can't do from home. I wish it were possible, but I can't.
At the end of the day, my goal is to try and capture images that make people go "WOW!" I don't care how I capture the data, as long as I am the thought behind the capture. That's nothing against people who buy data to process. If you're producing images, you're my sibling. But me personally, I want to be the thought behind my images. JMO, YMMV.
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