Astro Imaging Channel Tonight (7/7/24): The Quest for Aperture: Why are big telescopes better? Other · John Hayes · ... · 32 · 2035 · 3

ashastry 2.81
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John Hayes:
Arun H:
But, my question is: what is the real disadvantage of using small pixel cameras with large scopes, so long as you are covering a desired FOV? You can always bin/resample in software and essentially get the same signal as you would if you'd used a larger pixel in the first place. Isn't the real disadvantage just processing and storage?


Yes, the real disadvantage is in processing and storage.  I've noticed that BXT seems to do a bit better with unbanned data so in spite of starting with a lower SNR (wrt binned data) I tend to get a better looking image with sharper features from unbanned data.  This all falls apart somewhat if you are talking about a telescope that would require say 4x binning.  Big scopes such as the CDK1000 from Planewave with an EFL over 6m are reaching the point where they benefit from bigger pixels to better match the seeing conditions.  I didn't say it in the presentation but in reality, as the size of the telescope gets larger, everything gets harder!

John

Excellent presentation @John! Lots of good information there.

BTW, I have done a bunch of testing on different targets with binning after BXT and binning before BXT, and I came to the same conclusion as you -- that running BXT on unbinned data, and then binning it afterwards has consistently led to sharper images.
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sn2006gy 3.61
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Great video! appreciate these series.

I did get a kick out of this bullet point:

image.png

My Red Cat is really hitting it out of the park
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lunohodov 1.81
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Thank you for this enlightening presentation, John!

There was a lot I didn't know about and I went down into the rabbit hole. But it was a great journey. So thank you for that too.
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kevinkiller 2.11
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Hi,

I'm looking at  the attached spreadsheet and I'm a little confused about the numbers used counting the lens surfaces between the GTX130 and the DR350 / DR500.

The Delta Rho 350 has two exposed mirrors and a lens group with 3 elements (https://astronomytechnologytoday.com/2022/09/02/planewave-delta-rho-350/) so it's entry in the spreadsheet of 2 dirty  mirrors, 5 clean lenses and 1 dirty lens seems correct.  (I'm guessing the dirty lens to be the one facing the secondary mirror).

The GTX130 is listed as having one clean lens surface and one dirty lens surface, but this is a triplet refractor with a field flattener.   Wouldn't that be 6 lens surfaces in the telescope (3 lenses / 2 surfaces per lens) and then another 4-6 surfaces in the flattener (4 for a 2 element flattener, 6 for a 3 element flattener)?  i.e. 1 dirty lens surface, 11 clean surfaces (presuming a 3-element flattener).

I'm using the spreadsheet to help me pick a new telescope by comparing it to a telescope I own and looking at the difference in performance so it's important to me that the calculations be accurate as possible.
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AstroLux 11.43
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John I think the best answer is the biggest aperture you can afford is the best telescope to get smile
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kevinkiller 2.11
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Agreed!  But that's not the whole story. 

Here's a comparison between a C14 Edge and a DR350.  I've (software) binned the edge to give it the same pixel scale as the DR350.

image.png

Using the Edge in (software) BIN 3.75 mode shows the RH350 to be 38% less efficient on extended sources but gives FOV that is 13.8x smaller.  (117.8 * 78.6) / (31.6 * 21.1).

So depending on the size of the objects you want to image one telescope will be nearly 1.6x more (or less depending on your viewpoint) efficient.

With the Edge you can lower your (software) BIN mode to take advantage of nights with better seeing at the expense of signal per unit time.   Conversely you can drizzle the DR350 to get more resolution (again at need to take 2x the number of exposures).  [Don't forget to take the extra read-noise in binning mode into account when calculating sub-exposure times for the Edge]

(note:  I don't recall a study looking at the efficiencies of Binning a longer focal length scope vs drizzling a shorter one, so it's hard to know which is more efficient.)

In the end I think the real difference between them will be determined by row 18:  Total Transmission and that's why I was asking about how to accurately enter the number of lens/mirror surfaces.
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jhayes_tucson 26.84
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John Stone:
Hi,

I'm looking at  the attached spreadsheet and I'm a little confused about the numbers used counting the lens surfaces between the GTX130 and the DR350 / DR500.

The Delta Rho 350 has two exposed mirrors and a lens group with 3 elements (https://astronomytechnologytoday.com/2022/09/02/planewave-delta-rho-350/) so it's entry in the spreadsheet of 2 dirty  mirrors, 5 clean lenses and 1 dirty lens seems correct.  (I'm guessing the dirty lens to be the one facing the secondary mirror).

The GTX130 is listed as having one clean lens surface and one dirty lens surface, but this is a triplet refractor with a field flattener.   Wouldn't that be 6 lens surfaces in the telescope (3 lenses / 2 surfaces per lens) and then another 4-6 surfaces in the flattener (4 for a 2 element flattener, 6 for a 3 element flattener)?  i.e. 1 dirty lens surface, 11 clean surfaces (presuming a 3-element flattener).

I'm using the spreadsheet to help me pick a new telescope by comparing it to a telescope I own and looking at the difference in performance so it's important to me that the calculations be accurate as possible.

You have to be a little careful to understand the design of the lens.  Maybe I goofed on how many air-glass interfaces are in the GTX130 but a triplet doesn't necessary have 6 surfaces.  It's possible to have cemented surfaces as well.  The GTX130 is an apochromatic objective and I'm not very familiar with the actual design, the number of elements, or the number of air-glass interfaces.  Either way, the spreadsheet gives you a reasonable tool for dealing with it if you can get the input right.

John
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jhayes_tucson 26.84
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John Stone:
Agreed!  But that's not the whole story. 

Here's a comparison between a C14 Edge and a DR350.  I've (software) binned the edge to give it the same pixel scale as the DR350.

image.png

Using the Edge in (software) BIN 3.75 mode shows the RH350 to be 38% less efficient on extended sources but gives FOV that is 13.8x smaller.  (117.8 * 78.6) / (31.6 * 21.1).

So depending on the size of the objects you want to image one telescope will be nearly 1.6x more (or less depending on your viewpoint) efficient.

With the Edge you can lower your (software) BIN mode to take advantage of nights with better seeing at the expense of signal per unit time.   Conversely you can drizzle the DR350 to get more resolution (again at need to take 2x the number of exposures).  [Don't forget to take the extra read-noise in binning mode into account when calculating sub-exposure times for the Edge]

(note:  I don't recall a study looking at the efficiencies of Binning a longer focal length scope vs drizzling a shorter one, so it's hard to know which is more efficient.)

In the end I think the real difference between them will be determined by row 18:  Total Transmission and that's why I was asking about how to accurately enter the number of lens/mirror surfaces.

Sure, you can do that, but you've got to be happy with pretty poorly sampled images from your C14.  Under good seeing conditions a well sampled C14 should use pixels in the range of 7 - 9 microns.  By "binning" at 3.75, you are increasing the effective pixel size to about 14 pixels, and (as you've shown) that's sampling at a rate of 0.74", which isn't very good for that scope.

John
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