I just wanted to write a short ode to AP mounts, AP customer service, and the ONE GUY who literally helped me set up and "tune" to perfection two complicated systems so they run like clockwork, Bill from Dark Matters Astro ( www.darkmattersastro.com), an official sponsor of Astrobin. Anyone who hasn't had a chance to "play" with his amazing data is missing out. Unlike Telescope live where you have to STACK everything, here you just receive a perfectly calibrated master LRGB/HA or SHO set of data and you can jump right into processing. I call Bill the "AP whisperer" because he came to my house and set up BOTH of my systems and TUNED them. Then, remotely, over time, he taught me how to build models, polar align using Sharpcap and dial in the guiding where it is spot on night after night. Honestly, I would never have figured out to get the most out of my mounts without his expert help and guidance and set up. Plus, it's super fun to build a model with AP scopes and if you have a permanent set up, you can run that model for months. For anyone who wants to get the MOST out of their equipment, no one knows more about how to set up and tune systems like Bill and he does professional tech support and packages that include a full year of support. Not to mention the fact that I practice processing using his data as there is no better place to buy data (and his weather in Chile and NM is a lot better than mine in Vermont) so I rely on his data to keep me sharp and to process Southern Hemisphere objects I can't image. Anyone can check out both my images and the ones I process using his data on my astrobin account. And tonight, I'm actually doing my first ever 10 minute subs on both scopes, the AP1100 with NO encoders (just guiding) and the Mach 2 with encoders, UNGUIDED and the eccentricity is under .4 and FWHM around 2.5-2.7 (good for Vermont). I'm blown away. Once I get more RGB data, I'll definitely post. Feeling grateful for the support of this awesome community!!
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It is our great honor to work with folks to get the bleeding edge best out of their gear! For anyone reading this, Michele lives in Vermont which gets extremely cold!
We worked with Michele to get her system dialed in unguided in those really tough conditions they have in Vermont, and her data is awesome!
We are happy to help others achieve the same!
Bill
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While that's awesome service. I was running 20min subs on a $900 used HEQ5 in 2009…
AP mounts are out of this world - I had an AP900GTO back in 2012 I think, and nobody would praise the quality of those mounts more highly than I. It just seems strange to be having to spend that level of money to achieve acceptable 600s subs. The average mass produced chinese harmonic mount can guide 20 min subs all night long for less money than AP will charge to sell you a tripod and two counterweights.
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Congrats Michelle! Bill has been a huge help to me as well over the years. He's even provided support when the "manufacturer" refused to (Voyager) despite me having an active and paid subscription. Voyager dev told me to buy a new computer (when I updated voyager and it broke) and then angrily told me that we were not friends and that since voyager works for other people that I was on my own. Thanks to Bill… who figured out what the issue was, I didnt have to buy a new computer or switch capture software (which I will likely do the latter when my subscription runs out). Bill has also changed a filter out for me at my dark site when he was visiting for another reason, and of course any issue I have… he's always willing to eagerly assist.
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Alex Nicholas:
While that's awesome service. I was running 20min subs on a $900 used HEQ5 in 2009...
AP mounts are out of this world - I had an AP900GTO back in 2012 I think, and nobody would praise the quality of those mounts more highly than I. It just seems strange to be having to spend that level of money to achieve acceptable 600s subs. The average mass produced chinese harmonic mount can guide 20 min subs all night long for less money than AP will charge to sell you a tripod and two counterweights. I own two AP mounts and an AP telescope. No doubt some cheaper mount and telescope made in China would give me similar performance, but I have appreciated having something designed and crafted by someone who has done so much for astronomy and astrophotography and I have also appreciated the direct interaction and support I have received. Same with Chroma filters and with Optec focusers. Supporting this holds value to me. Not everything is about mass produced goods from China, for me anyway.
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Congrats Michelle! Bill has been a huge help to me as well over the years. He's even provided support when the "manufacturer" refused to (Voyager) despite me having an active and paid subscription. Voyager dev told me to buy a new computer (when I updated voyager and it broke) and then angrily told me that we were not friends and that since voyager works for other people that I was on my own. Thanks to Bill... who figured out what the issue was, I didnt have to buy a new computer or switch capture software (which I will likely do the latter when my subscription runs out). Bill has also changed a filter out for me at my dark site when he was visiting for another reason, and of course any issue I have... he's always willing to eagerly assist. Never used voyager, but these stories from so many different people makes me wonder why anyone would use their product and put up with such terrible behavior and support. Thankful for NINA.
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Arun H:
Alex Nicholas:
While that's awesome service. I was running 20min subs on a $900 used HEQ5 in 2009...
AP mounts are out of this world - I had an AP900GTO back in 2012 I think, and nobody would praise the quality of those mounts more highly than I. It just seems strange to be having to spend that level of money to achieve acceptable 600s subs. The average mass produced chinese harmonic mount can guide 20 min subs all night long for less money than AP will charge to sell you a tripod and two counterweights.
I own two AP mounts and an AP telescope. No doubt some cheaper mount and telescope made in China would give me similar performance, but I have appreciated having something designed and crafted by someone who has done so much for astronomy and astrophotography and I have also appreciated the direct interaction and support I have received. Same with Chroma filters and with Optec focusers. Supporting this holds value to me. Not everything is about mass produced goods from China, for me anyway. could not agree more - first of all, AP's customer service is always "above and beyond" - not many companies where you can reach a real person any day of the week to help with issues. Do Iphone cameras and a Leica MP 11 both take pictures? Yes - but the user experience is not comparable. AP mounts are a pleasure to use and operate - and yes, I'm sure I could take even longer subs. But I love how they slew, how they function, how they are put together, the absolute encoders on the Mach 2, and how you can use sky models through their software to ensure near perfect tracking/pointing. I'm not criticizing Chinese equipment - I'm just expressing my delight at the user experience of these two mounts after almost 3 years living with them.
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Voyager dev told me to buy a new computer (when I updated voyager and it broke) and then angrily told me that we were not friends and that since voyager works for other people that I was on my own. Experiences like this are why I refuse to buy Voyager; why pay to be insulted, especially when there are other options? I suppose this is one way to develop a reputation for reliability - get rid of the customers for whom it doesn't work!
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Voyager dev told me to buy a new computer (when I updated voyager and it broke) and then angrily told me that we were not friends and that since voyager works for other people that I was on my own. That is hard to believe...but I had a similar response when I asked about SkyGuard support for Voyager. I was basically told to go away. That's no way to build a following. John
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John Hayes:
Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Voyager dev told me to buy a new computer (when I updated voyager and it broke) and then angrily told me that we were not friends and that since voyager works for other people that I was on my own.
That is hard to believe...but I had a similar response when I asked about SkyGuard support for Voyager. I was basically told to go away. That's no way to build a following.
John Agreed. The watchdogs and RoboTarget parts of the software are not fully replicated elsewhere and I rely on both heavily. Its focusing is also the best I’ve encountered yet.
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Dark Matters Astrophotography:
John Hayes:
Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Voyager dev told me to buy a new computer (when I updated voyager and it broke) and then angrily told me that we were not friends and that since voyager works for other people that I was on my own.
That is hard to believe...but I had a similar response when I asked about SkyGuard support for Voyager. I was basically told to go away. That's no way to build a following.
John
Agreed.
The watchdogs and RoboTarget parts of the software are not fully replicated elsewhere and I rely on both heavily. Its focusing is also the best I’ve encountered yet. I fully agree with you on focusing that robofire single star focusing is best in class. I don't agree with the other two statements, however. In this other thread I described how to replicate the watchdogs with NINA for any arbitrary thing you want a dog to watch.  I believe the Target Scheduler v5 plugin for NINA surpasses the functionality and ease of use of RoboTarget from Voyager, however full disclosure I switched to NINA in the fall of last year, so my opinion of RoboTarget is based on its functionality at that time and I don't know what has potentially been added/improved since that time. There are two things Target Scheduler doesn't do directly that RoboTarget does: remote API/editing of targets and a summary report after a session. I have recently enhanced Target Scheduler with an API (not yet published, still in testing), which I have integrate into my observatory dashboard to provide things like this:  Unfortunately the preview for tonight is pretty boring because it's full moon (and actually the observatory controller will inhibit opening at this moon stage), so here's a shot of what it looks like when more stuff is going on:  Here's another widget on my dashboard based on this API:  I have not yet implemented remote modifications of projects/targets, the API is presently read only, but at some point in the future that might happen. It would be relatively easy to add an email summary of the session, but I haven't really looked into it since I've moved to using my observatory dashboard to keep track of things. Tom Palmer who is the developer of the plugin (I just added the API) has done an amazing job with it and it has evolved rapidly to V5 where it is now, and in my opinion, it has surpassed RoboTarget. https://tcpalmer.github.io/nina-scheduler/ |
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Arun H:
I own two AP mounts and an AP telescope. No doubt some cheaper mount and telescope made in China would give me similar performance, but I have appreciated having something designed and crafted by someone who has done so much for astronomy and astrophotography and I have also appreciated the direct interaction and support I have received. Same with Chroma filters and with Optec focusers. Supporting this holds value to me. Not everything is about mass produced goods from China, for me anyway. I'm well aware that its not always about mass produced goods from china. You've misunderstood. As mentioned - I've had an AP mount, and a bisque mount too. I've not had the pleasure of an AP scope yet - but I still dream about a Starfire 130... I'm not saying that they aren't worth it, or that the quality is not there, because it certainly is... What I'm saying is highlighting 'running 600s guided exposures' as a glowing review for a AP1100 is strange, given that almost any mount can do that... Once you build a good pointing model however, the AP1100's pointing accuracy would blow anything mass produced out of the water without concern. Or if it was being used with a large, long focal length scope... I'm not saying the instruments are not brilliant. I'm saying 10 min subs at a short to mid focal length is not difficult for any mount of even relatively low quality... A mass produced chinese mount is nowhere near as lovely an instrument as an AP1100, but it will certainly run 10 min subs at ~1000mm focal lengths straight out of the box..
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Kyle Goodwin:
Dark Matters Astrophotography:
John Hayes:
Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Voyager dev told me to buy a new computer (when I updated voyager and it broke) and then angrily told me that we were not friends and that since voyager works for other people that I was on my own.
That is hard to believe...but I had a similar response when I asked about SkyGuard support for Voyager. I was basically told to go away. That's no way to build a following.
John
Agreed.
The watchdogs and RoboTarget parts of the software are not fully replicated elsewhere and I rely on both heavily. Its focusing is also the best I’ve encountered yet.
I fully agree with you on focusing that robofire single star focusing is best in class. I don't agree with the other two statements, however.
In this other thread I described how to replicate the watchdogs with NINA for any arbitrary thing you want a dog to watch.
I believe the Target Scheduler v5 plugin for NINA surpasses the functionality and ease of use of RoboTarget from Voyager, however full disclosure I switched to NINA in the fall of last year, so my opinion of RoboTarget is based on its functionality at that time and I don't know what has potentially been added/improved since that time. There are two things Target Scheduler doesn't do directly that RoboTarget does: remote API/editing of targets and a summary report after a session. I have recently enhanced Target Scheduler with an API (not yet published, still in testing), which I have integrate into my observatory dashboard to provide things like this:
Unfortunately the preview for tonight is pretty boring because it's full moon (and actually the observatory controller will inhibit opening at this moon stage), so here's a shot of what it looks like when more stuff is going on:
Here's another widget on my dashboard based on this API:
I have not yet implemented remote modifications of projects/targets, the API is presently read only, but at some point in the future that might happen.
It would be relatively easy to add an email summary of the session, but I haven't really looked into it since I've moved to using my observatory dashboard to keep track of things. Tom Palmer who is the developer of the plugin (I just added the API) has done an amazing job with it and it has evolved rapidly to V5 where it is now, and in my opinion, it has surpassed RoboTarget.
https://tcpalmer.github.io/nina-scheduler/ Thanks for the information. I’ll look this over and reach out directly if I have any questions.
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Alex Nicholas:
Arun H:
I own two AP mounts and an AP telescope. No doubt some cheaper mount and telescope made in China would give me similar performance, but I have appreciated having something designed and crafted by someone who has done so much for astronomy and astrophotography and I have also appreciated the direct interaction and support I have received. Same with Chroma filters and with Optec focusers. Supporting this holds value to me. Not everything is about mass produced goods from China, for me anyway.
I'm well aware that its not always about mass produced goods from china. You've misunderstood.
As mentioned - I've had an AP mount, and a bisque mount too. I've not had the pleasure of an AP scope yet - but I still dream about a Starfire 130... I'm not saying that they aren't worth it, or that the quality is not there, because it certainly is...
What I'm saying is highlighting 'running 600s guided exposures' as a glowing review for a AP1100 is strange, given that almost any mount can do that... Once you build a good pointing model however, the AP1100's pointing accuracy would blow anything mass produced out of the water without concern. Or if it was being used with a large, long focal length scope...
I'm not saying the instruments are not brilliant. I'm saying 10 min subs at a short to mid focal length is not difficult for any mount of even relatively low quality... A mass produced chinese mount is nowhere near as lovely an instrument as an AP1100, but it will certainly run 10 min subs at ~1000mm focal lengths straight out of the box.. Now I understand what you are saying. I'm relatively new to the field so I didn't realize 10 minute subs were that "normal" but now that I hear you, yes, I should have also shouted out the amazing models and accuracy and ability to slew well past the meridian, precision and quality more than just the fact that I could do 600 second subs. I guess I meant that thanks to the pointing model and all sky model I created, the guiding was SPOT ON and with my mach 2, I didn't need guiding at all. Thanks for your thoughts on this.
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Michele Bayliss:
Now I understand what you are saying. I'm relatively new to the field so I didn't realize 10 minute subs were that "normal" but now that I hear you, yes, I should have also shouted out the amazing models and accuracy and ability to slew well past the meridian, precision and quality more than just the fact that I could do 600 second subs. I guess I meant that thanks to the pointing model and all sky model I created, the guiding was SPOT ON and with my mach 2, I didn't need guiding at all. Thanks for your thoughts on this. I've not yet used the mach 2, but I understand that they are absolutely amazing!! And yes, the feature list about what the big AP mounts are capable of is absolutely second to none. A friend of mine runs a AP1600GTO in his observatory and sees guiding of 0.12~0.17" RMS night after night with a 12" newt and a 4" APO on its back... Absolutely unparalleled levels of performance!
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Now I know the other stuff I should have bragged about lol - I"m learning!
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I do 15min unguided subs on my 1100GTO AEL at 0.31"/pixel resolution with my CDK12.5" at full native focal length. Pretty amazing mounts.
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A kindred spirit. I also have the AP1100 and a Mach2. Love them, except I should have gotten the low temp abs. encoders for winter time.
Since I regreased the gears on the 1100, they make a ticking sound when slewing. I regreased them because every 20 minutes, an event would occur that would show a displacement of an image that a guider was necessary to fix. This would cause any image taken during such a displacement to form double stars (one star at the normal place, and a second appearing at a new place slightly offsetting). I was never able to determine if this was due to an encoder problem or a flaw in one of the gears.
Now it does this image destroying displacement less often, but I am stuck with a ticking sound (each turn of the gear) when slewing.
Cheers,
Dave
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Arun H:
Alex Nicholas:
While that's awesome service. I was running 20min subs on a $900 used HEQ5 in 2009...
AP mounts are out of this world - I had an AP900GTO back in 2012 I think, and nobody would praise the quality of those mounts more highly than I. It just seems strange to be having to spend that level of money to achieve acceptable 600s subs. The average mass produced chinese harmonic mount can guide 20 min subs all night long for less money than AP will charge to sell you a tripod and two counterweights.
I own two AP mounts and an AP telescope. No doubt some cheaper mount and telescope made in China would give me similar performance, but I have appreciated having something designed and crafted by someone who has done so much for astronomy and astrophotography and I have also appreciated the direct interaction and support I have received. Same with Chroma filters and with Optec focusers. Supporting this holds value to me. Not everything is about mass produced goods from China, for me anyway. At the rate things are going, an AP mount might become cheaper than mounts from China.
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Ashraf AbuSara:
Arun H:
Alex Nicholas:
While that's awesome service. I was running 20min subs on a $900 used HEQ5 in 2009...
AP mounts are out of this world - I had an AP900GTO back in 2012 I think, and nobody would praise the quality of those mounts more highly than I. It just seems strange to be having to spend that level of money to achieve acceptable 600s subs. The average mass produced chinese harmonic mount can guide 20 min subs all night long for less money than AP will charge to sell you a tripod and two counterweights.
I own two AP mounts and an AP telescope. No doubt some cheaper mount and telescope made in China would give me similar performance, but I have appreciated having something designed and crafted by someone who has done so much for astronomy and astrophotography and I have also appreciated the direct interaction and support I have received. Same with Chroma filters and with Optec focusers. Supporting this holds value to me. Not everything is about mass produced goods from China, for me anyway.
At the rate things are going, an AP mount might become cheaper than mounts from China. At 145% tariff level, that might actually be true.
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I agree that AP is hard to beat. I have owned an older 155 refractor back in the late 90's and early 2000's as well as both GoTo and Non-GoTo 1200s back in the day plus a 900 and now a 1600 AEL. The quality is basically very hard to beat.
I am on the list for their new 155 since I was on the old 155 list since 2000. That's the downside, Roland often goes for many years w/o making a single scope for which there is a long wait list. The upside is that they not only hold their value, it is not uncommon (at least with the optics) to use them for years and, if and when you do sell them, get more than you bought them for.
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Bill McLaughlin:
I agree that AP is hard to beat. I have owned an older 155 refractor back in the late 90's and early 2000's as well as both GoTo and Non-GoTo 1200s back in the day plus a 900 and now a 1600 AEL. The quality is basically very hard to beat.
I am on the list for their new 155 since I was on the old 155 list since 2000. That's the downside, Roland often goes for many years w/o making a single scope for which there is a long wait list. The upside is that they not only hold their value, it is not uncommon (at least with the optics) to use them for years and, if and when you do sell them, get more than you bought them for. Agreed. I'll part with my AP 130 GTX when someone pries it from my cold, dead hands.  |
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Arun H:
Ashraf AbuSara:
Arun H:
Alex Nicholas:
While that's awesome service. I was running 20min subs on a $900 used HEQ5 in 2009...
AP mounts are out of this world - I had an AP900GTO back in 2012 I think, and nobody would praise the quality of those mounts more highly than I. It just seems strange to be having to spend that level of money to achieve acceptable 600s subs. The average mass produced chinese harmonic mount can guide 20 min subs all night long for less money than AP will charge to sell you a tripod and two counterweights.
I own two AP mounts and an AP telescope. No doubt some cheaper mount and telescope made in China would give me similar performance, but I have appreciated having something designed and crafted by someone who has done so much for astronomy and astrophotography and I have also appreciated the direct interaction and support I have received. Same with Chroma filters and with Optec focusers. Supporting this holds value to me. Not everything is about mass produced goods from China, for me anyway.
At the rate things are going, an AP mount might become cheaper than mounts from China.
At 145% tariff level, that might actually be true. Not in Australia.... Tariff level = 0% Shipping for an AP mount, portable pier and counter weights = 30% of the cost of the mount...
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