The effects of aperture on guiding [Deep Sky] Acquisition techniques · Tony Gondola · ... · 33 · 845 · 0

This topic contains a poll.
Did your guiding improve when you switched from a dedicated guide scope to OAG?
Yes
No
astro.midnight 1.20
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Oskari Nikkinen:
I did notice an improvement going from a 60mm achromat guidescope to an OAG (8" newt). I dont subscribe to the idea that bigger scopes are more prone to seeing issues, i think its just that a bigger scope is more capable of measuring the effects of that poor seeing.

I have had issues with chasing the seeing even with multi-star guiding, typically with at least 5 stars in use. In these cases the seeing is so bad that good data is not coming through no matter what. In those cases i bump up the exposure from my usual 3s to something like 4 or 5.

Important to note that the guide graph might not be as pretty with an OAG, so a naive quick glance might lead one to believe that guiding got worse. In reality that is just the bigger aperture being able to measure the bad seeing far more accurately than some cheapo achromat suffering from every optical aberration imaginable. At the end of the day its not the guide graph that matters, but the actual data itself. Which should be better with an OAG, if only by a barely measurable amount.

I greatly prefer my OAG to the guidescope for other reasons too, such as ease of use and reliability. No extra dew straps required, always in best focus, more compact to carry and less setup required as it is attached to the imaging train. Just easier and better, hardly any downsides.

I tottaly agree. I have a 10' newt, and you can really notice the impact of the seeing conditions. One thing I notice is that when I started using OAG the graph was pretty much the same ,the big diference is when the target hits 40º or lower, that impact a lot the guiding graph for the worst. The subs however were much cleaner compared when using a guidescope. With a guidescope I notice more alongation on the stars in some subs. In the end I would say for larger appertures using an OAG is much more sensitive but can give you much more accurate and better results.
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whwang 15.16
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Let me only comment about seeing, primarily responding to the very first post from Tony.

To quantitatively understand seeing, there are at least three fundamental parameters:

1. Height (H) of atmosphere where most of the turbulence occurs.  In clear, calm nights, that's about 10 km or so, plus a ground layer.

2. Freid parameter (r0), where within this size, the air can be treated as uniform and therefore little deformation of incoming wavefront.  (This is more like a diameter, and I don't really know why it's written as r rather than d.). In other words, the resolution you get is the diffraction limit associated with r0, not your telescope aperture. At top-notch astronomical sites like Maunakea, this can be about 30 cm, corresponding to a seeing of about 0.4". At sites accessible to most amateurs, let's say r0 is probably between 5 cm to 10 cm.

3. Wind speed (v) in the layer that produces turbulence. This can be highly variable.  r0/v is basically the time scale of seeing. For example, if r0=5cm, v=1m/sec, seeing time scale would be 0.05 sec, i.e., your image will change at a speed of 20 Hz.

So Tony is correct that when you use a small guide scope whose aperture is smaller than r0, essentially you are seeing through a more or less uniform air. The incoming wavefront is still more or less planar. As a result, you can still see the diffraction pattern of the telescope. However, although the wavefront is more or less flat, it can be tilted. A tilted wavefront appears as light coming from a slightly different direction. So this effect will make a star "dance around" at a high frequency (v/r0) in your image. This effect is called tip-tilt effect.

When you use a much larger telescope, whose aperture is a few times larger than r0, it's looking through air that contains several different zones (N = (D/r0)^2). Air in a zone can be treated as uniform, but each zone is independent.  Light from these zones form diffraction limited images that dance around independently.  However, their motion do not cancel each other out perfectly.  The center of these speckles would still move around in the image.  In many cases, even on very large telescope (D > 1m), the tip-tilt mode still contains most of the power, compared to the high order mode (the mode associated with the uncorrelated motion of the many diffraction limited speckles).  So even if you use a large telescope with OAG, you can still chase after seeing.

Another important thing is the field of view r0/H. Because H is usually so large, only objects in a very small field move or scintillate together. For example, take H = 10 km and r0 = 5 cm. The associated FoV would be 1 arcsec. (5cm/10km = 0.000005 radian = 1 arcsec) So essentially every object on your focal plane dances differently, if they are more than 1 arcsec away from each other. In other words, no matter it's OAG or guide scope, you are chasing a different seeing than your main target.  Well, even for your main target (usually larger than 1 arcsec), different parts of the target suffer from different seeing effects.  So from this point of view, an OAG and a guide scope are equally bad.  

(1 arcsec sounds bad, and this is a bit too pessimistic. The reality can be slightly better, since only part of the turbulence is from the 10km layer. The ground layer usually has some contribution and its H is much smaller.  But this won't change the overall picture.)

To avoid chasing seeing, what can really make a difference is the use of multi-star guiding. The multiple objects in the guider FoV (no matter guide scope or OAG) essentially move independently from each other. By averaging their motion if there are enough of them, you can average a good fraction (if not all) of their tip-tilt mode motion so you are no longer chasing the seeing. Immediately after PHD2 implemented the multi-star guiding function, I gave it a try.  There is often a noticeable difference is guiding rms before and after turning on multi-star guiding. So I now always use it as default.  In some sense, this slightly favors a guide scope, since a guide scope can usually (not always) offer many more guide stars than an OAG. 

So theoretically speaking, from seeing's point of view, there shouldn't be a great difference between guide scope and OAG. But there can be other factors, such as flexure. This favors OAG. So I can still believe the claim by many people that OAG improves their guiding.  However, I don't think too many of them reached such a conclusion by doing carefully controlled tests, such as quickly switching back and forth between an OAG and a guide scope on the same imaging scope within a short time when conditions are similar.  So although I can believe the conclusion, the exact reason (seeing? flexure? anything else?) is not too clear to me.

My 2 cents.
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WS65 0.90
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My guiding RMS has increased from 0.5" Total-RMS (with guiding scope 50/200 +183C) to 0.8" with OAG (200/760 + 678M) . So it is much worse BUT I have no more problems with flexure (which I had with the guiding scope) !
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Gondola 8.11
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I totally agree, especially on the flexure issue. It really is a non-issue unless you have something really loose or if you are shooting very long subs.
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KGoodwin 4.71
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Werner Stumpferl:
My guiding RMS has increased from 0.5" Total-RMS (with guiding scope 50/200 +183C) to 0.8" with OAG (200/760 + 678M) . So it is much worse BUT I have no more problems with flexure (which I had with the guiding scope) !

Your metric is worse, but your guiding is probably actually better.  It is advisable to use image camera FWHM and eccentricity to judge the quality of your guiding in the absolute sense, rather than the guider RMS.  Use the guider RMS once you have the system working well and producing good images to know if something is better or worse than usual.  The reason the RMS guiding gets worse sometimes when swapping to an OAG is that it becomes more sensitive (more accurate).  With a longer focal length and the guide stars spread over a greater sensor area the centroid is more sensitive.
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KGoodwin 4.71
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Tony Gondola:
I totally agree, especially on the flexure issue. It really is a non-issue unless you have something really loose or if you are shooting very long subs.

Or just longer focal length/higher resolution.  If you're using a guide scope and your guiding RMS looks good, but your main camera results are not good (poor eccentricity is usually the tell-tale) then you probably have differential flexure.  It's very common, even on systems that seem very rigid.  Ignore flexure at risk of great frustration.
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Gondola 8.11
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Kyle Goodwin:
Tony Gondola:
I totally agree, especially on the flexure issue. It really is a non-issue unless you have something really loose or if you are shooting very long subs.

Or just longer focal length/higher resolution.  If you're using a guide scope and your guiding RMS looks good, but your main camera results are not good (poor eccentricity is usually the tell-tale) then you probably have differential flexure.  It's very common, even on systems that seem very rigid.  Ignore flexure at risk of great frustration.

I've never seen it at 900mm but my subs are usually 15 sec. and never longer than 60 sec. I suppose a way to do a gross check would be to plate solve through your guide scope at different orientations and keep track of the rig position and pointing error, if the GS pointing is moving you should see a trend. You could do the same with the imaging scope to see if it's adding to the problem.
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KGoodwin 4.71
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Tony Gondola:
Kyle Goodwin:
Tony Gondola:
I totally agree, especially on the flexure issue. It really is a non-issue unless you have something really loose or if you are shooting very long subs.

Or just longer focal length/higher resolution.  If you're using a guide scope and your guiding RMS looks good, but your main camera results are not good (poor eccentricity is usually the tell-tale) then you probably have differential flexure.  It's very common, even on systems that seem very rigid.  Ignore flexure at risk of great frustration.

I've never seen it at 900mm but my subs are usually 15 sec. and never longer than 60 sec. I suppose a way to do a gross check would be to plate solve through your guide scope at different orientations and keep track of the rig position and pointing error, if the GS pointing is moving you should see a trend. You could do the same with the imaging scope to see if it's adding to the problem.

The effect is much smaller than you could detect with plate solving.  The precision of plate solving is going to be much too low to get an accurate result.  900mm is a short focal length and 15-60s are very short subs.  It's very easy to detect: on a night of good seeing, image normally (ideally do this with narrowband so you can go at least several minutes on the subs to see the effect).  If your guiding RMS looks good, but eccentricity is bad, you have differential flexure (most likely).  If they're both good, you don't (most likely).
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Gondola 8.11
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Kyle Goodwin:
Tony Gondola:
Kyle Goodwin:
Tony Gondola:
I totally agree, especially on the flexure issue. It really is a non-issue unless you have something really loose or if you are shooting very long subs.

Or just longer focal length/higher resolution.  If you're using a guide scope and your guiding RMS looks good, but your main camera results are not good (poor eccentricity is usually the tell-tale) then you probably have differential flexure.  It's very common, even on systems that seem very rigid.  Ignore flexure at risk of great frustration.

I've never seen it at 900mm but my subs are usually 15 sec. and never longer than 60 sec. I suppose a way to do a gross check would be to plate solve through your guide scope at different orientations and keep track of the rig position and pointing error, if the GS pointing is moving you should see a trend. You could do the same with the imaging scope to see if it's adding to the problem.

The effect is much smaller than you could detect with plate solving.  The precision of plate solving is going to be much too low to get an accurate result.  900mm is a short focal length and 15-60s are very short subs.  It's very easy to detect: on a night of good seeing, image normally (ideally do this with narrowband so you can go at least several minutes on the subs to see the effect).  If your guiding RMS looks good, but eccentricity is bad, you have differential flexure (most likely).  If they're both good, you don't (most likely).

That's sounds like a good way to check.
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